|
|
| Author |
Message |
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
  |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| Polarbear |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Polarbear
Super Spammer
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma : 
|
 Posted: 17:40 - 28 Jun 2019  Post subject: |
 |
|
I mentioned this elsewhere a couple of months ago. Somewhere in the conversation, Itchy said something about all political systems being vulnerable to some level of corruption, including that of China, to which I replied he better be careful what he said, as he might find his social credit taking a hit and having restrictions placed upon him. He hasn't been back to the forum since, I don't think 
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 18:58 - 28 Jun 2019 Post subject: Re: China Social Credit system. |
|
|
| Polarbear wrote: |
Why is it disturbing? Big brother is going to be watching you whether you like it or not. Do you really think they aren't doing a lot of that now? |
It's not that they're watching. It's what they do with that power. In a country like China where the powers of the government are arbitrary and unlimited, and human rights is an issue that is often ignored, that would indeed be worrying. Presumably, there'll be no mechanism by which an individual can challenge decisions made against them.
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Polarbear |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Polarbear
Super Spammer
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Sister Sledge |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Sister Sledge
World Chat Champion
Joined: 17 Aug 2018
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:22 - 28 Jun 2019 Post subject: Re: China Social Credit system. |
|
|
| Polarbear wrote: |
Do you really think our government won't use that software?...Our security forces will be using it for whatever they want |
Use it for what?
What do they want?
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Sir Clip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Sir Clip
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 08 Jun 2018
Karma :  
|
Posted: 22:03 - 28 Jun 2019  Post subject: Re: China Social Credit system. |
|
|
| chickenstrip wrote: | | Polarbear wrote: |
Do you really think our government won't use that software?...Our security forces will be using it for whatever they want |
Use it for what?
What do they want? |
Well, they wouldn't make our details available to third parties, would they?
It's not like when you've been in an accident, and suddenly you get hundreds of calls from unidentified phone numbers?
Oh no, your data is safe with our government, who outscource their services to all sorts of companies you have never heard of...... and some, worryingly, you have.
I'll let you make up your own minds, but ask you to question what global corporations such as Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, etc, are doing getting into bed with companies financed by government departments, or representatives, or quangos, etc.
Why do corporations such as Apple, Microsoft spend so many dollars trying to get representation at government level?
Why does Lockheed Martin, an arms supplier, have close links through its various tentacles, have so much information and control about british citizens, who actually owns and controls lockheed Martin anyway?
( edit, it is one of their companies who administer, if not own, the IT that are the backbone of the DWP and the NHS)
Whoever you think you are, you are not.
we are all being controlled and manipulated. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Polarbear |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Polarbear
Super Spammer
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| - |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
-
Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Lord Percy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 06:32 - 29 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
Misleading thread title!
The video you posted barely covers the Chinese social credit system at all. The social credit system is primarily aimed at solving the issue of corruption and immorality in business, which is notoriously cutthroat in China. Many people on here have talked of being cheated or sold downright shoddy goods when dealing with Chinese businesses. This is because they'll do anything to make a bit extra if they can get away with it. The social credit rating is hoping to fix this issue. It's nothing to do with monitoring how much alcohol you buy or how many shits you take in a day. It's almost entirely about reforming business and tackling corruption.
The rest of the documentary is right though. Uighurs are second class citizens, and Han people tend to believe they're the globally superior ethnicity. It gets very annoying actually. Foreigners have to deal with this bullshit in their own way too. I've heard of countless times when a foreigner got into an altercation in China (road accident, business issues, bar fight, whatever) and the foreigner was treated as the guilty party from the start, and most often doesn't win the case. So yes, I can very much believe that Uighurs are treated like shit too, and much worse. China has a Han superiority complex.
When I was in Kashgar (Uighur place), I got talking to a girl who worked at the hostel I was staying at. She said there are bombs and riots all the time, but the news never gets out via anything other than word of mouth. TV and newspapers are not allowed to cover it and any gossip on social media is quickly deleted.
This is the kind of shit people should be annoyed about. Social credit rating is actually a good move, and is not much different from having a credit report or criminal record. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 10:01 - 29 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Percy wrote: |
Social credit rating is actually a good move, and is not much different from having a credit report or criminal record. |
It's not just the Uighur people who are oppressed/suppressed in China though, is it? It's basically anyone who publicly espouses a political view that is different to that of the government. And criminal records, ok - but who is a criminal? That's the concern I would have in China.
I'm in two minds about the overall concept of the social credit system there. I think some of it may be a good thing in some ways, and no system is perfect. God knows, our own capitalist system is undergoing sticky times right now. But it's who is running it, and what recourse people have to justice in China, as you have alluded to, but carefully not mentioning the government with whom you cannot argue. Many of us in the west may have somewhat distorted views of China generally, but there are things about their system that we would find unacceptable here, no doubt about it.
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Lord Percy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:06 - 29 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
Having lived here quite a while now, I think I can say with some authority that China is honestly not even remotely the draconian anti-freedom state that some people seem to think it is.
Political dissent is swept up pretty fast, but in a country of 1 billion people, the absolute majority of people don't have any dissenting ideas anyway. Government trust is at a global high!
https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_7676_the_uk_ranks_low_for_trust_in_government_n.jpg
"That's because they don't know what they're government are really getting up to!" some may say.
But really, nobody knows what their government is getting up to. They just look at the society they live in and judge things based on what's happening around them. Most Chinese folk are quite happy indeed, and to be honest I think that's the only metric that really matters here. Everything else is just hysterical outrage based on extremely dubious facts.
| Ribenapigeon wrote: | @ Lord Percy, I wonder what happens to someone's social credit rating if they report such things as riots and bombings and other evidence of social unrest.
I think even calling it a "social credit rating" is a deliberately misleading misnomer. Its a "happy to give up your individuality and be socially engineered rating" |
"Social credit system" is a google translation of the original name - 社会信用体系 - , for which the central part - 信用 - has two meanings.
1. Credit.
2. Trust
The latter meaning has just as much importance here.
Have a read of this - Baidu - Social Credit System - if you open it in a good browser, you should be able to right click anywhere on the page and choose 'translate into English'.
Very informative, and clearly outlines how the whole thing is based on economic improvement, not arbitrary social surveillance or engineering. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:18 - 29 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Percy wrote: |
Political dissent is swept up pretty fast |
That's ok?
| Quote: | but in a country of 1 billion people, the absolute majority of people don't have any dissenting ideas anyway. |
Is that natural? Do you know of a political system that naturally has no criticism?
| Quote: | Government trust is at a global high! |
Would they be inclined to express any other view? Would they be allowed to express any other view, without it affecting the way the government treats them as citizens?
Do you want this system for the UK?
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
Posted: 16:16 - 29 Jun 2019  Post subject: |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon wrote: | So, lets apply the system to this thread, Polarbear has already been sarcastic about Burkas so thats him screwed. Lord Percy is praising a foreign power so also screwed and im probably going to be off tbe voting tegister and have my passport revoked (at the very least) just for starting the thread. |
It's interesting to me that Itchy and Lord Percy, who have both lived and worked in China and presumably will continue to do so, or at least don't want to forgo that opportunity, seem to want to point out either how that system is good, or how other systems are worse, and have a tendency to trivialise the bad things about the Chinese system, or dismiss them altogether. It makes one suspicious that they are being forced to conform to that system, abrogating their free will and free thought to it in any discussion of it, so as not to find themselves in friction with it in real ways.
I wonder if this conversation can even be had in China, without it having any very real effects on the participants. This makes it seem to me a touch hypocritical when one lives in two worlds - make a living in China, accepting and even praising their system, whilst enjoying the right to free thought and speech here in the west (although how free are they even here, given they work in China and there may be a suspicion that what they say here could have consequences there?). This is why I have asked Lord Percy whether he wants the Chinese system for the UK, and am interested to hear his answer to that.
I have a suspicion that anyone who wants to have any kind of meaningful engagement with China will be railroaded into being complimentary of that state, or at least not say anything that paints it in a bad light, possibly at all levels, which they will then have to tell us in the west is because China is indeed "glorious".
There is another point to make with regard to people who praise China so much. If this social credit system is so wonderful, why wasn't the Chinese population calling for it, crying out for it before it was actually considered by the government? It's not exactly a difficult idea to come up with, after all.
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Lord Percy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 04:24 - 30 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
| chickenstrip wrote: | | Lord Percy wrote: |
Political dissent is swept up pretty fast |
That's ok?
|
Well, yes. The only reason you think it's not okay is because you're of the belief that political freedom is a cornerstone of humanity. Chinese people don't think like this. Their cornerstone is family and security. The government does all that it can to maintain this, and so they are happy.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | but in a country of 1 billion people, the absolute majority of people don't have any dissenting ideas anyway. |
Is that natural? Do you know of a political system that naturally has no criticism?
|
Very natural! Any population that has seen rapid growth in living standards and global economic standing, year on year, for three decades, is not going to have much to complain about...!
| Quote: |
| Quote: | Government trust is at a global high! |
Would they be inclined to express any other view? Would they be allowed to express any other view, without it affecting the way the government treats them as citizens?
|
This is one of the big untruths about China that outsiders seem to willingly fall for. The idea that Chinese citizens are somehow afraid of dissent, that they live in some kind of dystopia where Chinese Big Brother will come down hard if they dare to step out of line.
People don't voice dissenting views because they have nothing they want to complain about.
For certain, this is partly due to the government's control of the media and internet. However, the point still stands that people here are happy, living perfectly normal lives, and have no reason to complain. They all know their internet and media are controlled, too, but it's just a generic grumble, similar to how you or I might complain about things but never feel angry enough to actually do anything about it, because life is still actually okay, all things considered.
| Quote: |
Do you want this system for the UK? |
No I don't have a specific desire for it, but I don't have a non-desire either. It's just a way of life and governance that works very well for the people who are living under it. I can at least say that it's absurd to criticise something that's working very well for almost 1/6th of the entire world's population.
Better would be to observe and learn from it, and see what can be applied. That's pretty much how the Chinese do everything in life, come to think of it. They're known as a copycat culture, and for good reason. They choose the best things and apply them. They do it in governance too. China is constantly learning from the mistakes of the west. Note that this isn't being done in reverse - the west is not attempting to learn from China. Most folk seem arrogant/insular enough to believe that the western way is the best and only way, and look where that's getting us. Everything's fucked! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Lord Percy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :
|
| Posted: 04:47 - 30 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
| chickenstrip wrote: | | Ribenapigeon wrote: | So, lets apply the system to this thread, Polarbear has already been sarcastic about Burkas so thats him screwed. Lord Percy is praising a foreign power so also screwed and im probably going to be off tbe voting tegister and have my passport revoked (at the very least) just for starting the thread. |
It's interesting to me that Itchy and Lord Percy, who have both lived and worked in China and presumably will continue to do so, or at least don't want to forgo that opportunity, seem to want to point out either how that system is good, or how other systems are worse, and have a tendency to trivialise the bad things about the Chinese system, or dismiss them altogether. It makes one suspicious that they are being forced to conform to that system, abrogating their free will and free thought to it in any discussion of it, so as not to find themselves in friction with it in real ways.
I wonder if this conversation can even be had in China, without it having any very real effects on the participants. This makes it seem to me a touch hypocritical when one lives in two worlds - make a living in China, accepting and even praising their system, whilst enjoying the right to free thought and speech here in the west (although how free are they even here, given they work in China and there may be a suspicion that what they say here could have consequences there?). This is why I have asked Lord Percy whether he wants the Chinese system for the UK, and am interested to hear his answer to that.
I have a suspicion that anyone who wants to have any kind of meaningful engagement with China will be railroaded into being complimentary of that state, or at least not say anything that paints it in a bad light, possibly at all levels, which they will then have to tell us in the west is because China is indeed "glorious".
There is another point to make with regard to people who praise China so much. If this social credit system is so wonderful, why wasn't the Chinese population calling for it, crying out for it before it was actually considered by the government? It's not exactly a difficult idea to come up with, after all. |
You think I'm faking my opinions for fear of being caught????
Sorry but you have been completely sucked in by the hysteria and fear-mongering. I'm actually very surprised by everything you just wrote there.
I can and will say whatever the hell I like. I've already mentioned here in another thread a while ago, China has plenty of things that I detest, but none of them relate to the problems you think exist.
The most common complaints are things like:
- Nationalism (anyone who isn't Han Chinese is of slightly lower status. Doesn't matter if you're a whitey or whatever else)
- Animal treatment
- The utter lack of social conscience which manifest everywhere, from road chaos, to queue jumping, ignoring people with problems in public... it's endless. Chinese people just do not care about anyone else, and I hate this.
- The annoyingly truthful claim that China is a peaceful society, while at the same time having countless examples of petty vengeance attacks that go straight to near-morbid, grievous bodily harm, usually involving a meat cleaver.
- Suicide victims being considered as mentally deficient psychos who deserve what they get. (e.g. videos of rooftop jumpers with a crowd at the bottom saying, "Hurry up and jump already!")
- Archaic conservative family values (this week my girlfriend's dad called her up to tell her he'd found a buyer for her to get married to, then got angry when she refused, saying, "I really regret spending my money on raising you.").
It's shit like this that makes me utterly detest China at times, and I'm quite free to say so. None of it is about the government though. I truly have nothing bad to say. Whether that's down to media control preventing me from learning the bad bits or what, I don't know, but the simple fact is that life here is perfectly fine (and getting dramatically better) for the absolute majority of people. I just speak as I see.
Please also note that I already criticised Chinese government treatment of Uighurs in this very thread, so your claim that I'm afraid to speak my mind on here is truly absurd.
In truth, there's a chance that this thread could be discovered by Chinese authorities, and BCF would then be blocked in China. But it's highly unlikely, because I'm literally the only person in China who uses this site. Dissent is only blocked if it begins to take hold in large numbers. Anyone is free to criticise in any way they want. I was at a work party last year when one of the guys said he doesn't like Xi Jinping. Nobody cared, in fact I think some of them laughed.
The only thing they can't do is organise into large, threatening groups. If BCF became a hotspot for westerns wanting to moan about China, it would hit the CCP's internet radar and would be banned. But me alone? No chance.
Honestly I can't say more strongly just how absurd your above post was. I'm amazed you think that way about people who live here. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| chickenstrip |
This post is not being displayed .
|
chickenstrip
Super Spammer
Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 08:31 - 30 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
Fair comment 
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| wr6133 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
wr6133
World Chat Champion
Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 12:10 - 30 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
| chickenstrip wrote: | Is that natural? Do you know of a political system that naturally has no criticism? |
You have to put it in context, 30-odd years ago my wife grew up with rationing, strict rationing at that (fairly privileged military family had 2 eggs per week for the entire family, meat was rare and quantities tiny,etc). There was a waiting list for a TV (if you could even afford one), car ownership was 0% (multiple bicycle families were well off) and if you had a fridge you were a high roller. Clothing beyond the "mao" suit was incredibly expensive. Foreign travel was only for Diplomats. Infrastructure was primitive and unreliable (6 hour+ rolling blackouts were the norm in Beijing).
Fast forward to now, the people that grew up with the above, own their homes (or as close to "own" as you can in China), multiple cars are the norm, houses are full of consumer electronics, everyone has a fridge and TV. Food is plentiful and abundant (and staples are price controlled by the government). Foreign travel is easily accessible. Infrastructure is advanced (Beijing makes London look primitive). Yes there are still desperately poor parts but even their standard of life has improved (thanks to consumer credit) vastly beyond where it was.
Now if you grew up in the 1st paragraph but are now living in the 2nd paragraph, wouldn't your satisfaction with the Government be high? Everything in the life a Chinese Citizen from their mid 30's onward has improved exponentially..... except for political voice (arguably that's actually worsened), but they never had that anyway so the majority don't give a shit. Of course were the economic growth that has relentlessly occurred since the late '90's slow to a halt, causing the credit bubble to burst and peoples standard of living slide backwards I suspect people would suddenly start giving a shit about politics.
In summary if you can PCP a car, TV and a flagship smartphone the vast majority don't give a shit about their political freedom (and that applies to any country). I lived out there in the early 2000's when the consumerist boom was starting to really take off and have returned most years since it's noticeable how peoples interest in politics has actually dropped. Lord Percy proves my point somewhat... he's got a piece of pussy, a roof over his head and probably eats better (and eats out more often) than if he was in the UK...... he doesn't seem to care about the political system/transparency of government/political freedom because his life is in the main bloody good (that's not a criticism Percy, I'd be/was no different). |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Ribenapigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 4 years, 295 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating