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China Social Credit system.

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 05:59 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
I didn't start this thread to criticise China but what interests me is that such systems can even be put in place and how they can disempower a people.


These disempowered people you speak of have the fastest growing economy on earth, high savings, mass home ownership, they're the world's most prolific consumers and are just as commonly seen at tourist/travel destinations as any other nation's folk.

What more power does the average person really want?

wr6133 wrote:
Lord Percy proves my point somewhat... he's got a piece of pussy, a roof over his head and probably eats better (and eats out more often) than if he was in the UK...... he doesn't seem to care about the political system/transparency of government/political freedom because his life is in the main bloody good (that's not a criticism Percy, I'd be/was no different).


Correct indeed, and I'm not living the high life either. Even if you ignore the 30 years of continuous improvement, I think there are a lot of wider factors that just make things 'good'. Cheap food, cheap public transport and cheap rent are all big factors for me. There is no equivalent in the UK. Funny how economic management tends to work better than free market dogma.

I also agree that things can and will certainly change if the economy starts to slow down in any dramatic way. That will create an interesting situation for sure.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 08:17 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


These disempowered people you speak of have the fastest growing economy on earth, high savings, mass home ownership, they're the world's most prolific consumers and are just as commonly seen at tourist/travel destinations as any other nation's folk.





What % of china's population are these lucky few?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:



What more power does the average person really want?



Power to democratically influence government is a good start for me.

Heres an example of a healthier use of modern technology in governance.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46799768
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:



What more power does the average person really want?



Power to democratically influence government is a good start for me.



Because western democracy as it stands is really good at doing that Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:


Power to democratically influence government is a good start for me.



Because western democracy as it stands is really good at doing that Laughing


At least it has a mechanism by which to do it (and your comment is pure cynicism, and so cannot be taken seriously). If we are to give power and authority over us to others, don't you think it better that we have a say in the exercise of that power and authority? If not, I expect not to hear from you again in political threads.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:


What % of china's population are these lucky few?


About 40%. https://chinapower.csis.org/china-middle-class/

Same as Switzerland. (UK middle class was at 60% in 2010. I'd be very interested to see what that percentage is now)

A couple of anecdotes:

1. Girlfriend's family, grew up poor in the sticks. She had to get up every morning at 6am to help make food for the day, then walked to school where at times there wasn't even water to drink. 30 years later and every member of her family seem to have their own modern home - a property each. Her own mortgage is going to be paid off in two years, at 33 years of age.

2. Old mate of mine from Manchester, came to China with his girlfriend to live for a year. They were driving somewhere when she pointed out of the window and said, "Oh that's the slum I used to live in." He wondered if she'd picked the wrong word there, but no she really did grow up in a slum. Wooden shacks with tarpaulin sheets for covering, and a single lightbulb connected to loose wire. Her parents sold fruit and veg on a little stall. 30 years later, they've also all got properties, and afforded to pay for her to undertake university education in the UK.

These kinds of examples are ten-a-penny.

China does have inequality and there definitely are people being left behind, but the amount of people who have entered a whole new world of modernity and disposable income is unquestionable.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:


Because western democracy as it stands is really good at doing that Laughing


At least it has a mechanism by which to do it (and your comment is pure cynicism, and so cannot be taken seriously). If we are to give power and authority over us to others, don't you think it better that we have a say in the exercise of that power and authority? If not, I expect not to hear from you again in political threads.


It's an interesting question and is extremely complex, I think.

One factor worth considering is the idea of choice. Give someone a choice, and they'll forever question that choice. Could it be improved? How about trying the other one? There's also bias and dogma, by which people will stick with a bad decision just because they don't want to accept that they were wrong. 'Choice' is a psychological minefield.

If you have this 'choice' removed, it doesn't automatically make you worse off. Oftentimes, you just get on and are perfectly happy.

This plays out in all sorts of ways. Do you want Coke or Pepsi? Or would you have been perfectly happy if someone just gave you a cola flavoured drink?

Or consider livestock which is produced for the meat industry in battery farms. Protesters constantly scream about how unhappy the animals are, because they live in poor conditions and have no choice, but those animals were born there so they don't know any better.

Interesting little talk here: The Paradox of Choice.

So, why do I get so involved in discussion about UK politics, while at the same time claiming Chinese people are perfectly happy not talking about politics?

Because the politics are about my country, where I grew up and where I'll very likely return and die (this stint over here in chinachinachina is absolutely not a permanent decision), and where there is a choice, so of course I'm going to forever think about how that choice might affect me, my mates and my family back home.

The real question is, would I care if there wasn't a choice? Probably not. I don't think anyone would, not if it was the norm.

I think this is the point you're missing. Nobody over here is asking for that choice, and if it were given to them, they'd most likely say, "Why does it concern me? The political system here is a completely different kettle of fish, as is the entire culture of the people. The government is basically seen as a kind of headmaster entity. It does its job, the country runs effectively, nobody has anything to moan about.

Do you get annoyed about the fact that school students can't elect their headmaster? Why?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


The real question is, would I care if there wasn't a choice? Probably not. I don't think anyone would, not if it was the norm.

I think this is the point you're missing. Nobody over here is asking for that choice, and if it were given to them, they'd most likely say, "Why does it concern me? The political system here is a completely different kettle of fish, as is the entire culture of the people. The government is basically seen as a kind of headmaster entity. It does its job, the country runs effectively, nobody has anything to moan about.


I think this is very wrong thinking. The Chinese people are more likely just resigned to the fact that for now, they have no say in political decisions. They've got used to it perhaps, but I think if you gave them political freedom, they very much would get involved. We saw this following the break-up of the Soviet Union after 50-odd years of people resigning themselves to the arbitrary decisions of their political masters. Unfortunately for them, Putin and the 'old guard' got a hold on the political landscape very soon after, and the public in the Russian Federation are once again restricted in political participation. Those ex-Soviet Bloc countries which have remained outside of Russia's sphere of influence have vibrant political discussion and participation.

Protests do arise in China from time to time, which shows that political thinking is not entirely suppressed, although the Chinese authorities crack down on it very quickly, so it can't spread. But I think it would spread, given the opportunity, the space.
I also think it very presumptuous of you to claim to speak on behalf of the Chinese people.

Quote:
Do you get annoyed about the fact that school students can't elect their headmaster? Why?


No, it doesn't affect me. But here, we are talking about young people who need more time to form and consolidate their ideas, and indeed their ideals - they have very limited life experience, so it's probably not a good idea for them to have that power. Education first, application later. The adult population must decide what kind of society they want to live in, and craft policies, including this question, for them. At what age do you think people should become eligible to vote? 5? 11? 15? 18? Later?

Are you saying the Chinese people are children? I suspect you are approaching the questions from the wrong direction.

If you are saying that the Chinese think in a very different manner to the rest of the world, then I would say perhaps their influence in that wider world should be restricted. You would probably counter this by saying that perhaps the Chinese methods should be adopted worldwide. But why do we not see this happening of other country's own volition?

But remember also that China has changed vastly and fundamentally in the last few decades. It may be that some of their new ideas will be seen to be beneficial, and will be adopted elsewhere. It is, if nothing else, a useful and interesting experiment they are conducting, although perhaps not a morally safe one, in that it is at the expense of a people who are given no choice in the matter. I prefer democracy, for all its flaws. No system will ever come to a point where it no longer requires refinement and adjustment.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


So, why do I get so involved in discussion about UK politics, while at the same time claiming Chinese people are perfectly happy not talking about politics?

Because the politics are about my country, where I grew up and where I'll very likely return and die (this stint over here in chinachinachina is absolutely not a permanent decision), and where there is a choice, so of course I'm going to forever think about how that choice might affect me, my mates and my family back home.


And when you return home, you will still think that China should continue to be run the way it is? That's nice of you Laughing

Btw, Chinese rule in Hong Kong is going well, isn't it? Probably because nobody there cares about politics Laughing
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Theres nothing unique about standards of living rising. It happened in the UK over the middle part of the 20th century. Chinas scale might make theirs seem more spectacular but simple material gain is not an argument against democracy its just proof democracy is not key to economic expansion. Russia under communism did something similar between the wars.

What democracy can give people is a potential to protect themselves from systems like Social Credit.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 01 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Theres nothing unique about standards of living rising. It happened in the UK over the middle part of the 20th century.


The west is thinking, "you took your time" Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:29 - 02 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
commonly seen at tourist/travel destinations as any other nation's folk.


Lord Percy wrote:
afforded to pay for her to undertake university education in the UK


I wonder how such exposure to other cultures might affect the upcoming generations in the future? Maybe they'll start to become more politically aware, could have consequences for China's regime.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 08:42 - 02 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
commonly seen at tourist/travel destinations as any other nation's folk.


Lord Percy wrote:
afforded to pay for her to undertake university education in the UK


I wonder how such exposure to other cultures might affect the upcoming generations in the future? Maybe they'll start to become more politically aware, could have consequences for China's regime.


It's actually having the opposite effect.

I've read multiple anecdotes on Quora (before it was banned in China Laughing) from young, educated Chinese who either studied (or spent an extended period of time living/travelling) in the west, after which they felt even more happy with the way their country is, politics and all.

Most of the anecdotes were along the lines of:

- Growing up, we were all told that the west was a land of abundance with lots of wealthy people, peace and happiness.
- Then we went to the west and it was:
- Boring
- Politically fucked
- Lots of poor people
- Higher crime
- Rife with social issues

That's not to say their experience was downright awful. It was simply an eye-opener. There was nothing particularly outstanding to say, "This is how China could be."

So no, I don't think anything to do with increased wealth or travel opportunity will lead to Chinese demanding greater political freedom, at least not when things are going absolutely fine as they are. It's really quite simple - if ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

Quote:
Btw, Chinese rule in Hong Kong is going well, isn't it? Probably because nobody there cares about politics Laughing


Yes, Hong Kong, a century old democracy (soon to be ex-democracy) where people have grown up under one system of life and governance and are now having a new one forced upon them. What's your point? I support the Hong Kong protesters. Their way of life is being forcibly changed at a rapid pace. What's to be happy about?

I think you're vastly missing the point, that democracy is not directly correlated with happiness or personal freedom.

Quote:
I also think it very presumptuous of you to claim to speak on behalf of the Chinese people.


I think it very presumptuous of you to do the same, from so far away and with so little direct experience of the subjects you're discussing.


For what it's worth, and as a bit of a tangent - I showed Tiananmen Square protest footage to my girlfriend yesterday, and the iconic Tankman clip. She had never seen it before Shocked . All she had heard was gossip. Among her friends, their idea of Tiananmen Square is that there was a protest, everybody was gunned down, then the government cleaned up all the blood and pretended it didn't happen.

It definitely is interesting to see how differently people know and understand the world, and based off of what reasoning.

I don't think it really bares any relevance on the main situation though, which is about prosperity and daily freedoms, for which everything here is quite fine!
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 02 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
To get back on topic.
It occured to me that the Social Credit system has precedence in the pre digital age of the communist eastern europe. East German securitys mass servielance of people effectively worked to the same end. The fact everyone knew that they were being watched and having their actions noted and tracked was a large part of the systems power to control.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 02 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
All she had heard was gossip. Among her friends, their idea of Tiananmen Square is that there was a protest, everybody was gunned down, then the government cleaned up all the blood and pretended it didn't happen.


There was an official book shortly after it happened (my mother in law still has it). All the photos are vandalized buildings, injured soldiers and burned out army vehicles. The text of the book is basically, armed counter revolutionaries tried to overthrow the government in the name of fascism, brave soldiers died, much damage done, long live the revolution. For people outside of Beijing with that being the only news source they would have seen about it, it was probably pretty convincing (until the internet came along).

My wife's memory of it is she was pissed off because her young pioneers group were meant to be marching on the square and had spent months rehearsing for it to be cancelled due to unknown reasons. Her parents told her the noise was fireworks and she didn't think much else about it until she went to Uni in the West many years later. She's still grumpy about not getting to march Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 03 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:

Quote:
I also think it very presumptuous of you to claim to speak on behalf of the Chinese people.


I think it very presumptuous of you to do the same, from so far away and with so little direct experience of the subjects you're discussing.


Since the Chinese government likes to keep a tight lid on the most important matters, e.g. how many political prisoners are languishing in Chinese jails at the moment, I reserve the right to misinterpret them as much as I wish.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 05 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
I see China China China is bog on ethnically cleansing it's nation from Islam.
Not very PC for them..

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-china-48825090

Quote:
China is deliberately separating Muslim children from their families, faith and language in its far western region of Xinjiang, according to new research.

At the same time as hundreds of thousands of adults are being detained in giant camps, a rapid, large-scale campaign to build boarding schools is under way.

Based on publicly available documents, and backed up by dozens of interviews with family members overseas, the BBC has gathered some of the most comprehensive evidence to date about what is happening to children in the region.

Records show that in one township alone more than 400 children have lost not just one but both parents to some form of internment, either in the camps or in prison.

Formal assessments are carried out to determine whether the children are in need of "centralised care".

Alongside the efforts to transform the identity of Xinjiang's adults, the evidence points to a parallel campaign to systematically remove children from their roots.


Make your mind up, do you hate Islam or not? You're stuck between a rock and a hard place I see. Muslims are being 'dealt with', but because it's chinachinachina you won't allow yourself to jump for joy.

Also, small point of order: It isn't generic 'Muslim' oppression, it's Uighur Muslims who are basically the bomby rioty burka kind of Muslim.

There's another Muslim group in China called the Hui minority who live all over the country in perfect harmony.

I agree the CCP's treatment of Uighurs is shit though.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 05 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


Hypocrite.

China China China is such an awesome society until someone highlights its nasty side.


How much do you honestly read of anything before forming an opinion?

How much of this thread have you read?

How much of my last post did you read? Did you get to the end? You didn't get to the end.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 05 Jul 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
. Do you get annoyed about the fact that school students can't elect their headmaster? Why?


Ok, I give up trying to keep this thread on topic.

So sounds like your saying the Chinese people are essentially like children. There to be seen and not heard. If thats the state of the chinese people then why (apart from gross miliatary and economic power) should the rest of the world take the Chinese govt seriously? Presumably that government is made up of Chinese people, essentially a bunch of School Prefects?

Also why shouldn't we as a people of a democracy not be proud of that system and believe in it enough that we should have a very poor regard for autocratic systems.
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