|
Author |
Message |
Easy-X |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Riejufixing |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Riejufixing World Chat Champion
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
MCN |
This post is not being displayed .
|
MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Kawasaki Jimbo |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
Joined: 09 Oct 2015 Karma :
|
Posted: 13:03 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Dunno, but threadjack
I'm always intrigued by this "swapping out" phrase and assumed it was an Americanism.
Turns out it's origin is in computing and means, "To transfer (memory contents) into a swap file."
As you were. |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :
|
Posted: 13:17 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Easy-X wrote: | Chatting in the office about oil (as you do)… |
That's pretty much ALL I do in the office.
Easy-X wrote: | So is this correct...
Mineral oil wears out quick - ideal for running in an engine |
Not necessarily. Mineral oils tend to be a lower performance level as they can't deal with very high and very low temperatures as well synthetics. However a decent mineral oil can still protect very well against engine wear - it depends on what additives are in it.
Easy-X wrote: | Semi-Synthetic - probably worth swapping out every 6 months |
Why? Why 6 months? Why not 5? Or 7? Oil change interval is as much about use - distance, load, topography, speed, traffic etc. Your bike's manual will give service interval recommended by the OEM.
Easy-X wrote: | Fully Synthetic - more durable, could get a year out of it for the average bike. |
Again, service interval depends on a lot of factors. For a given drive cycle a synthetic will tend to give longer life, but there's no fixed multiplier or factor. Six months or a year feels right because humans like neatness but the reality will be somewhere else.
The only way to get an accurate oil change interval is to do regular oil sampling and testing, but since pretty much nobody does this the OEMs put together a simplified service interval based on average use, with plenty of contingency built in. I'd guess we are all routinely throwing away perfectly serviceable oil because "6 months".
Easy-X wrote: | 10W40 - nice, middle of the road viscosity for UK weather all year |
Pretty much - most bikes from the last couple of decades will happily run on this. Some bikes run hotter and prefer a thicker oil (my KTM takes a 10W-50). RTFM.
Easy-X wrote: | 10W30 - maybe for a really cold winter... or you live north of Watford |
10W-30 has the same cold temperature flow properties as a 10W-40. Once an engine is at working temperature the weather makes little difference.
Easy-X wrote: | Motorbike oil good, Car oil bad (fucks up your clutch.) |
Maybe. Some car oils will fuck up some clutches, but not all car oils will fuck up clutches.
Easy-X wrote: | For straightforward street bikes is that about the size of it? Does the brand really make much odds if you're swapping out once or twice a year and not riding to the raggedy edge? |
Better brands do their own product development and come up with their own technology. Lesser brands will take 'ready-made' formulae from industry suppliers (either another oil company or direct from the additive suppliers) and badge them as their own.
Given the job that an oil does (essentially keeping the whole of your engine working) is it really a place for cost-cutting? The answer will depend on your own attitude towards your bike and your wallet and it's why you can get a variety of oils, from £5/gallon garden centre stuff to £20/litre hand-picked boutique oils. The choice is yours. ____________________
Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Riejufixing |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Riejufixing World Chat Champion
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Riejufixing |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Riejufixing World Chat Champion
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Bhud |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Bhud World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Karma :
|
Posted: 13:28 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
I used to use the cheapest semi-synthetic bike oil I could buy, and change it frequently.
Now, I use only branded (Shell Advance Ultra or Silkolene) fully synthetic bike oil, still changed frequently (every 2k miles).
They are different. The oils look different: the fully synthetic one is much clearer, and the colour of urine. The semi-synthetic ones have a more bronze sort of colour. They seem to work differently, too. Gear shifting is much smoother with fully synthetic oil, and this is the big value in it for me, because I don't fancy trying to split cases on an old Japanese bike to replace transmission components after one too many missed shifts. Also, when you remove the clutch cover or valve cover, the cheaper oil will have left a bad-smelling brownish deposit everywhere, while, after a few changes with fully synthetic, there will be no such deposits.
My choice of oil and change frequency intervals is influenced by the type of riding I do. All leisure riding, with lots of inch-along-and-stop, with extended periods of idling at the lights (thanks, genius town planners), before being able to get out onto country roads where I change gears a lot in the redline but don't really keep a constant speed. If I just started the bike in the morning, let it warm up, then did a long motorway run to my destination, there would be less wear-and-tear and I would extend my oil change intervals. |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :
|
Posted: 13:40 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
Bhud wrote: | They are different. The oils look different: the fully synthetic one is much clearer, and the colour of urine. The semi-synthetic ones have a more bronze sort of colour. |
Yep - the colour of oil is determined by its ingredients. These are (put simply) the base oils and the additives. The base oils make up around 80% of the total. Synthetic base oils (of all types) are colourless and so the colour of the finished product comes solely from the additives that are mixed into it, which tend to be quite dark when neat. Mineral base oils have a range of colours, from amber to very pale and this imparts more colour to the oil.
Bhud wrote: | They seem to work differently, too. Gear shifting is much smoother with fully synthetic oil |
I'd suggest this is largely down to viscosity. All oils get thinner as they get hotter and get thicker as they cool down. Synthetic oils tend to change less than minerals, so stay within a 'Goldilocks zone' over a wider temperature range. The viscosity of an oil affects how an oil film forms between two surfaces, with a thinner oil generally offering a thinner oil film. I find that gear shifts are clunky when cold (oil is thick so there is a lot of drag across the clutch and between the gears and shafts) but also get worse when really hot (oil gets thin, oil film gets thin). I can often tell when my bike is getting hot by how the gear shift feels.
Bhud wrote: | Also, when you remove the clutch cover or valve cover, the cheaper oil will have left a bad-smelling brownish deposit everywhere, while, after a few changes with fully synthetic, there will be no such deposits. |
Yep - mineral oils are more prone to oxidation and thermal degradation, which leads to sludges and deposits forming (sometimes in combination with water and/or fuel combustion by-products). ____________________
Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
redeem ouzzer |
This post is not being displayed .
|
redeem ouzzer World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2015 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Easy-X |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
|
Posted: 14:14 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
weasley wrote: | Bhud wrote: | They seem to work differently, too. Gear shifting is much smoother with fully synthetic oil |
I'd suggest this is largely down to viscosity. All oils get thinner as they get hotter and get thicker as they cool down. Synthetic oils tend to change less than minerals, so stay within a 'Goldilocks zone' over a wider temperature range. The viscosity of an oil affects how an oil film forms between two surfaces, with a thinner oil generally offering a thinner oil film. I find that gear shifts are clunky when cold (oil is thick so there is a lot of drag across the clutch and between the gears and shafts) but also get worse when really hot (oil gets thin, oil film gets thin). I can often tell when my bike is getting hot by how the gear shift feels. |
My old Superlight was very much like this. Shifted great from cold, neutral never a problem. After 20mins neutral liked to play hide and seek.
I know the principles of how oil works but, as in so many things, the real world is not like the textbooks! All very informative stuff
BTW does oil break down or spoil much over time? Brake fluid starts to go off after 2 years or so... ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
weasley |
This post is not being displayed .
|
weasley World Chat Champion
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
The Shaggy D.A. |
This post is not being displayed .
|
The Shaggy D.A. Super Spammer
Joined: 12 Sep 2008 Karma :
|
Posted: 14:50 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Dunno, but threadjack
I'm always intrigued by this "swapping out" phrase and assumed it was an Americanism.
Turns out it's origin is in computing and means, "To transfer (memory contents) into a swap file."
As you were. |
Cite. ____________________ Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
Previously : CB100N > CB250RS > XJ900F > GT550 > GPZ750R/1000RX > AJS M16 > R100RT > Bullet 500 > CB500 > LS650P > Bullet Electra X & YBR125 > Bullet 350 "Superstar" & YBR125 Custom > Royal Enfield Classic 500 Despatch Limited Edition (28 of 200) & CB Two-Fifty Nighthawk > ER5 |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
barrkel |
This post is not being displayed .
|
barrkel World Chat Champion
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Easy-X |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
MCN |
This post is not being displayed .
|
MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Triton Thrasher |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Triton Thrasher Could Be A Chat Bot
Joined: 16 Oct 2012 Karma :
|
Posted: 17:14 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Dunno, but threadjack
I'm always intrigued by this "swapping out" phrase and assumed it was an Americanism.
Turns out it's origin is in computing and means, "To transfer (memory contents) into a swap file."
As you were. |
They seem to do “changing out” too though.
Where is “out?” ____________________ Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
MCN |
This post is not being displayed .
|
MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
stinkwheel |
This post is not being displayed .
|
stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
|
Posted: 22:26 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: |
|
|
As a general rule, the more you spend on the oil, the higher the service interval can be extended to.
So I use a basic, cheap 20w-50 mineral oil in my enfield bullet and change it every 1500 miles.
My mate uses royal purple oil in his track bike (a 160bhp gsxr1100 oil boiler so VERY hard on oil). You literally drain that stuff after a race, filter it through a coffee filter and re-use it. Uses the same oil for the full race season.
The viscosity to use is a function of the environmental temperatures and engine running temperatures/tolerances. Manufacturers guidelines are probably best here. In the UK, we don't see the extremes of temperature that would necessitate using a different grade in summer and winter.
Car oil is perfectly fine in most cases. I run halfords own brand semi-synthetic in my VFR750 and in the wifes CBR600. The engine out of my old GPZ500 (now in a mates survival bike) will have done over 90k miles on castrol GTX. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
MCN |
This post is not being displayed .
|
MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
stinkwheel |
This post is not being displayed .
|
stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
|
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Pigeon |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Pigeon World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Sep 2012 Karma :
|
Posted: 23:15 - 06 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Easy-X wrote: |
Motorbike oil good, Car oil bad (fucks up your clutch.)
|
The JASO MA and MA2 standards for Motorcycle oil allows for (amongst others) ACEA A1/B1, A3/B3, A3/B4, A5/B5, C2, C3, C4.
Some of those are diesel engine oil specs. But the same oil can be used as the basis for motorbike oil (not saying it has, but it can).
In other words, almost any engine oil can be JASO MA. It's simply JASO MA means further standards have been reached (specifically around friction, because of the clutch issue).
Bottom line, any brand oil thats ACEA A3/B4 10w40 (if 10w40 is specified in your manual) will likely be fine. But your risk.
Just avoid the <40 summertime rating, or anything that says high fuel economy.
I stopped using motorbike specific oil about 70,000k miles ago.
It is sensible to assume that bike specific oil is best. But it could also mean little development is done because there isn't the return on investment for such a niche market.
For example, as of a couple of years ago, Castrol Power was still API SJ when API SN was current.
API SN had stricter cam wear limits, BUT had lower levels of Zinc. Some people put more faith in zinc levels than cam wear standards.
I use a 50:50 mix of Total Quartz 9000 5w40 and 10w50 (so 7.5w45).
API SN, Porsche A40, VW505, BMWLL01
Seems a decent oil (contains Boron, but no Molybdenum.....which isn't always bad for bikes anyway apparently, depends on type and quantity).
I don't hang around on Striple or Gixxer and clutches have not been an issue after multiple traffic light GPs, Santa Pod runs or a trackday.......actually, that bike did blow up a few months later, but it had been over-revved and been abused for most of its 50k life and sounded bad when I bought it).
Having looked at 23 different oils (car and bike), at £4.60 - £4.90 a litre I'm happy that its cheap AND good.
Is it worth scrimping over. No, probably not. I just have too much time on my hands and like to feel I know what I'm buying when in reality I know very little. |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
blurredman |
This post is not being displayed .
|
blurredman World Chat Champion
Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Karma :
|
Posted: 08:10 - 07 Aug 2019 Post subject: Re: A discussion on oil |
|
|
Pigeon wrote: |
Having looked at 23 different oils (car and bike), at £4.60 - £4.90 a litre I'm happy that its cheap AND good. |
That's not cheap! I usually buy 4x gallons of 20w50 for £35, and the same amount of Semi Synth 10w40 for £45 ____________________ CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k. , 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 38k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 49k |
|
Back to top |
|
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 4 years, 264 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
|
|
|