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Pigeon |
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Pigeon World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:43 - 02 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Well, the starting problem reared it's stupid ugly head again this morning. It was almost a relief actually, as all this time i've been just waiting for it to do it again. Got it on video this time. Different to the times before though, as in this time it did eventually start...which it had never done before.
https://youtu.be/Zp4qI7RQuhI
This was just holding the start button in. You can hear the regularity of the initial attempts, until suddenly it almost fires once, and then does fire and start normally. It was colder today, but i'm not sure how much that's a factor as it has done the same thing when it wasn't so cold.
It's doing my head in. Everytime i hit the button for the first time now, there's the fear that it's not going to start...which is really, really frustrating, and has taken some of the shine off it tbh.
Still have the replacement starter motor ready to go on if needed, but that'll probably go back on ebay as i'm pretty confident it's not that, and more likely something electronical. Considering getting another ECU to try and see if that cures it. ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Posted: 00:20 - 03 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Once it properly turns over it starts instantly! 99% sure it's a starter motor problem. If you have another then swap it over and fettle with the busted one at your leisure.
Deep breath and dive in ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
Joined: 10 Jul 2008 Karma :
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Posted: 20:55 - 03 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Same thing again this morning Only it didn't eventually start this time. Had to get a lift in...again. Think my boss is just about as pissed with me as i am with it now.
So no choice but to take a deep breath and dive in...so when i got home i took a deep breath, and dived in, and finally got the motor out. What an awkward sodding job that was. Almost everything after the airbox was a pain, even the throttle bodies had to come out, just to get to the three bolts! So many connections, pipes and wires...just hope i can remember where they all go and in what order.
Anyway, old starter is now out, new old starter is in place but i'm going to wait till the weekend before putting it all back together, rather than rushing it and cocking something up tonight.
Was hoping there'd be some obvious signs on the old starter, but it all looks ok to my untrained eye. Both motors turned over pretty much the same when connected to a 12v source, both felt the same resistance when turning by hand, and no play in either of them.
Opening up the old one, this is how the brushes and armature and commutator look like;
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/sm1.jpg
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/sm2.jpg
Brushes look fine, commutator looks...i don't know..is that fine..? Doesn't look any worse than most others i've seen, but i don't really know what i'm looking for tbh.
Still pretty convinced it's an electronic issue..but i hope i'm proved wrong.
Oh, one last pic...i don't remember unplugging this thing..maybe it came off by itself, but does anyone know where it goes..?
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/sm3.jpg ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Posted: 23:36 - 03 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Damn... that motor looks fine and both motors turn okay when connected to a battery you say
<addendum> I'm looking at a wiring diagram for a 2009 675 and it looks to me like the motor control is run through not one but two relays. I don't see any mention of this in the workshop manual, maybe I'm misunderstanding the diagram...
After that there's just the usual suspects: kill switch, start switch, clutch switch, kickstand (in conjunction with neutral sensor) and obviously all the earth wiring. ECU also seems to be wired in from looking at the diagram but again, no mention in the workshop manual.
<further addendum>
Are the gauges connected via a CAN bus? If so the bike won't start if there's something up with that connection. ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Posted: 16:43 - 05 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Easy-X wrote: | Are the gauges connected via a CAN bus? |
Ooh..umm...good question! No fucking idea. I think i understand what one is and it's function on a basic level, but i don't know what one looks like or where it would be.
Update: So, the new old starter is in and everything's back together again. Is it better now..? No, no it's not
If anything it's worse. First time starting i held in the start button. About 5 seconds of holding it in later, it starts. Mmm..ok.
Since then, it actually turns over and fires up about 10% of the time. At one point it started doing that repeated initial kick, stop, kick, stop, kick, etc nonsense, same as before except a longer kick than before. But now, almost all of the time, it does nothing when holding the button in.
It will fire up if i bridge the relay terminals, but i don't want to have to take off the seat everytime i want to go somewhere.
I still think it's electronic. There's something stopping the signal from the start button reaching the relay, i think. Christ knows what, because i don't. Maybe it's the ECU, maybe it's not. I don't know.
Dammit. This has now gone from a bike that i adored, to one that i now look at in distrust and resentment. I fear that if i can't solve this our relationship will be irrevocably forever broken. ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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Meatybeaty |
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Meatybeaty World Chat Champion
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:11 - 05 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Another update..
Discovered a new thing. If i remove the headlight fuse and hit start button, the blue relay...
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/bluerelay.jpg
clicks when i press start. Like..definitively...without hesitation, so at least i know the connection from the start button is good.
But, before i checked that, there was a weird thing. I had the tank on, but raised so i could reach most of the wiring. Holding the start button down, i jiggled connectors and wires. Then, as i reached under the frame above the alternator to jiggle the wires there..it started.
Without touching anything again, i tried starting. Perfect. Everytime. Proper response from the button, immediate start. Just like how it used to be.
So then i put the tank back on carefully, did it all up, and tried again. Nothing. Back to square one. Raised the tank again, tried jiggling the same wires, nothing.
The feeling when it was starting on the button, while it lasted, was...was just so nice. God, i miss that feeling so much. ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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Hong Kong Phooey |
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 01:15 - 06 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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I don't know much about electrics, but just because it hasn't been mentioned so far; isn't there a thing with these bikes where part of the loom goes around the headstock, but is very tight, moves when turning the steering, and can eventually cause chafing on some of the wiring? Possibly leading to shorts, which could cause...I don't know what (certainly such intermittent problems to begin with, I would have thought - wires to ignition switch for e.g.)? Or maybe puts a strain on some of those wires in that loom leading to...? ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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Pigeon |
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Pigeon World Chat Champion
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Mr Hammers |
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Mr Hammers World Chat Champion
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Posted: 18:48 - 06 Oct 2019 Post subject: |
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Polarbear wrote: | From your above post it has to be a loose/bad connection somewhere. |
That's what i thought, but due to the randomness of it, it could just be that it decided it'd play ball at that particular moment. There seems to be a complete absence of cause and effect, at least that i can find anyway.
Quote: | I reckon to start with you should separate every connector block and clean and dielectric grease them one by one. |
I couldn't find anywhere open today that has it in stock, so for now i just took them all apart, cleaned them, and squirted some WD on them. A lot of them though appear to have been greased (i assume with dielectric grease) already.
Quote: | It's going to be a pain but it's that or pay Triumph to fix it. |
Well, all that made no difference at all, it's still playing silly buggers. I really can't afford to get Triumph to sort it, so for now i've rigged up an emergency start button.
I took the solenoid off completely and set to work out how it works, and found that it does indeed work fine. Once i figured out the input (to close the contacts) i could test it properly, and it's all good.
So, i bridged all of the terminals from connector to solenoid, and then spliced in one of them to positive via a microswitch. Mounted the microswitch near the seat release, so now it can, if it wants to, start on the button, but if it doesn't, i can use the microswitch to bypass everything. Seems to work ok, so at least whatever happens i can still start it and i don't need to remove the seat and hit the solenoid terminals. The only thing a little unsettling is that the engine management light has come on. It has done it before when i've disconnected the battery a lot, but eventually turned off. Hoping it does the same again.
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/relay1.jpg
One blue wire is coming from the 12v supply on the connector, via the microswitch, and the other from the microswitch to + on the battery.
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/relay2.jpg
https://www.planetash.net/bcf/starter/relay3.jpg
Nicely tucked away at the front of the underseat box, in fact you can't even see it when standing up next to it. Not that anyone could start it from there anyway, as you still need the ignition on, but they could drain the battery if they wanted.
And here it is working: https://youtu.be/i1BACrX68YA
HongKong Phooey wrote: | Is the tank or seat chafing any wiring or deflecting any when down? I can see yellow and blue wires poking out on the left next to the frame where it looks like it has worn through. |
Well spotted I wondered if anyone would pick up on that. No, it's fine, there was a little chafing originally, so i opened up a little to see if any copper was showing through, but all the wires are intact there.
chickenstrip wrote: | isn't there a thing with these bikes where part of the loom goes around the headstock |
I've tried going from full lock one way to the other before when it wouldn't start, but it didn't seem to make any difference, and i tried the recall check but there wasn't anything about it.
For the moment, i'll just have to use the emergency switch and try finding a proper solution another time. Just about had enough of it atm, yet another weekend spent entirely on the bloody thing...but not the good sort of spending time on it ____________________ A Guide To Powerbands |
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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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Hong Kong Phooey |
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 4 years, 193 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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