Programming - How to judge one's capability / level / salary

[Lord Percy]

I was unsure about whether to stick this in the Auntie BCF section or here.

I'm looking into heading back to the UK, where I want to continue working as a programmer.

I get the impression there are quite a few programming jobs out there, but I'm unsure of what sort of skill or salary range I should be aiming for. The reason I'm unsure is because my only experience has been as the sole programmer at my current employer - a recruitment company, for whom I've created and maintained several projects (website, apps, in-house software). Since I've only ever worked solo, I don't know at all what I'm supposed to be measuring myself against in the jobs market.

It would probably help if I reel off a few things to mark the "stuff I have done / can do" at a professional level.

C#, .NET, web, desktop (UWP / WPF), mobile (Xamarin, Wechat), server management, web security, IIS, SQL, SQL Management studio, unit testing, React, Typescript, .Net Core... just general dotnet developer web/server/software stuff really, for business-oriented applications.

Given my experience and responsibility, I don't really think I'm 'junior' any more, but I fear I'm lacking in a few areas due to my experience being all solo. For example I have absolutley no idea about all the software development team terminology - Scrum, Agile, Kanban, Pair Programming, Code Review... - , I don't know much about proper software development life cycles (I just make stuff and publish it for the company when it's ready!), and am not hugely well versed on Git either - I just use it to push my own work to a nicely staged set of constant backups. But those things can all be learned pretty quick, I suspect?

I'm seeing a lot of jobs like this, which I feel reasonably suited to: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/1560353383/?alternateChannel=jymbii

But the pay is phenomenal, so I must be missing something. Part of me tells me I should be aiming lower, but that might just be impostor syndrome and the fact that I don't know enough about the UK programmer jobs market.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

(Actually the example in that job link has a much higher salary than most - typically I'm seeing stuff around the 30-40k mark - but that kind of job description is something I feel suited to anyway).

[Hawkeye1250FA]

Hey,

If its contracting work then you sound like a back end / front end developer - and would probably be competing in a £400 -£600 per day market depending on location and what exactly they are after.

On a permanent basis, it really depends what type of company you want to work for and where they are based?

Without futher info - Id very roughly say youd get offered £35k-£50k up north, and literally anything in London.

It flags little alarm bells though when you talk of "doing" things like "Sql server Management Studio". Thats simply a front end tool to work in SQL - and generally people fluent in SQL would simply say DBA or expert SQL developer, and they would refer to it as SSMS rather than its full name

So im taking from that that its more front end focussed?
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[P.]

[Lord Percy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that I 'do' SQL Management Studio, I just meant to reel off a list of stuff I've worked with. I'm aware it's called SSMS but must admit I'm not an expert by any stretch. My primary tool is Visual Studio. I mainly use SSMS for adding database tables and writing various little queries as needed - nothing expert level. If I had to strictly limit it to the stuff I'm most competent at, I'd go with C#, Typescript, Entity Framework and Visual Studio (which I know is also just a tool, but it's a bloody big one!). Also various frameworks e.g. UWP, .Net Web API, Xamarin, WPF etc.

My ideal realm in programming is back-end stuff, primarily in areas where I'd be writing as much C# as possible. That's what I really like doing.

I have extensive front-end experience too, but it's not my favourite part. The only joy I've found in this area has been with the React framework, using Typescript, which enforces much stricter software engineering principles than the hodge podge that web development usually offers.

Either way, that ball-park figure of 35-50k for the north is a fair reflection of what I'm seeing advertised in job listings. I'm more interested in permanent work rather than contract stuff.

Thanks

And you're right - there's literally anything in London...(120k)!

[Lord Percy]

[Hawkeye1250FA]

Im the same - I could literally earn 95k+ in london for a hedge fund doing nothing but SQL dba stuff. But I really dont want to live in or near london lol

ok - lots of places (In my experience) are looking for application type developers (maybe after brexit finally gets sorted at least - currently the market is a little dry because companies are "waiting")

Jscript / c# / AngularJS

Basically if you can write a decent SPA and can hold a decent conversation (I.e. not a Sheldon from the big bang threory type geek ) Then you should be able to get decent money anywhere.

Most of my roles in the last 6 years have been up north and the developers as per the above were on 35k-50k.

(Chester / Manchester / Liverpool / Glasgow / Tamworth are specifically where ive seen these roles filled first hand)

Agile is a piece of piss, scrums are part of agile and are basically just a meeting where jobs are discussed / handed out.

Lots of places have different ways of software release anyway so I wouldnt worry about that - you can get around that by telling them the way you know, they will provide how they do it.

Gits a tough one - Id say get yourself some online training depending on how good you want to be on it. Ive used it a lot and am nowhere near even adding it to my CV.
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1993 RF400R - 2002 Bandit 1200 - 2012 1250 FA

[Lord Percy]

Fantastic. SPAs are a thing I'm definitely capable of.

Git, well I'll just carry on learning it I guess.

Looks like things could indeed be quite promising if decide to make the move back to the UK. (And it's looking very likely - China has enough programmers... pay and conditions are nothing like I'm seeing in western companies!).

Thanks for the info. Just what I wanted to hear.

[Hawkeye1250FA]

[duhawkz]

You'll probably be given a technical test to complete before been asked for interview.

That can range from a simple fizzbuzz type thing, to producing some small application complete with tests, with the project laid out correctly as per best practice for the language you chosen.

That will help them assess where you sit in terms of skill. If you can get through that you should be ok.

Things to consider are the complexity of your solution, could someone pick up your code and troubleshoot or extend it.

Basic stuff like the sensible variable and method names.

Just because you can write something in some obfuscated oneliner doesn't mean you should, sure it might demonstrate you know the language, but if i were reviewing such a solution I'd think the candidate was a cock and would probably reject it, if it wasn't apparent from the code what was going on.
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"The guy is a worthless cunt and I honestly believe I would be a slightly happier person if he died." - Chris-Red

[Lord Percy]

Yeah I'm aware of the whole 'clean code' thing.

It definitely adds to my concerns though. I do my best to learn and follow all the best practises, but as I said I've never had anyone (or anything) to measure myself against.

[barrkel]

You're worth your replacement value. If your skills aren't niche, they're commodity. Commodity skills have a lot of competition, which drives down prices. Specialize, either in a codebase (if you can join a greenfield project early enough), a technology (narrower than .net / C#, something you can be in the top 1% of) or a business domain (so you can deliver value much more directly).

£50k isn't a lot of money. It's not difficult to leverage software to create much more value than that. But you can't capture much of that value unless you're harder to replace.
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[Lord Percy]

[P.]

[Fizzoid]

[P.]

Thing about London. Not everyone can live there. Cost of living is high.

My 2 bed is 23 mins out of Victoria/London bridge depending on train. That's 230k of house.triple that for being closer to London.

Living outside with a short commute isn't bad. You can always work round the problems like trains etc but should you want to live closer, house shares exist and apartments near Central can be 350-400k, all down to how much you care.

Me... I don't care in the slightest. I've had 6 years of a 2hr round trip commute. It's now 25 mins. I'd go back to a long commute if it means more money.

[Lord Percy]

Yeah, commuting and lifestyle is a big decider for me. Currently I'm doing about 40 minutes commute, so pretty much 1.5 hours wasted in a day.

I don't mind the high(er) cost of living. I did a year there as a student and still saved enough to travel India the following summer. Nothing in particular is drastically more expensive apart from property and beer, at least for the way I tend to go about life. The thing putting me off London however is the lack of countryside. I guess I could do London for a year or two, save hard, then head merrily back up north.

Got a lot to think over...

[Fizzoid]

It's also not just time but money to commute. I commute in from Farnborough, my annual ticket (including zones 1-6) is just shy of £5k
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Rogerborg wrote: It'd certainly make it easier to ego-find my own posts on pages, given the number of fags (gay like traps) who insist on putting my name in their .sig

[Lord Percy]

Fair point.

Alright, here's another way of seeing things: On the sort of 'typical London salary' people are throwing around in this thread - let's say £50k - how much can one expect to reasonably save per month? Assuming a relatively cheapskate existence.

For the north, having looked fairly extensively at possible earnings/savings based on working in Leeds on around 35k, I figured I'd be able to put a good £600-800 aside per month and still live very comfortably. (And not have to deal with as many people, traffic, lack of countryside, etc)

What would that savings calculation look like for the aforementioned London scenario?

[owl]

[Fizzoid]

[P.]

[Easy-X]

If you're a biker you have a lot more options with London. Takes me just over an hour to get to the centre of town from where I live pretty much regardless of traffic. Whereas with a car sometimes it's taken me 3 hours for the same journey Train is a relatively consistent hour and a half unless there's engineering work or strikes or... leafs

Personally I can only handle contract work in London. More money (full time) usually means a bigger company and then you have more rigid structures - going through processes rather than actual coding. Stacks of work around London though: Bracknell, Reigate, Sevenoaks. Basically anywhere in or around the M25...

Unless you're attached to a place ofc. I've worked in Durham, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Birmingham... err... Scunthorpe... errrr.... Merthyr Tydfil. None of which I ever consider living in, especially the last two (although I quite liked Durham.)
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[Lord Percy]

[Lord Percy]

[P.]

If you are riding in the UK, you can just make your way out and head towards Oxford, or go the other way into the garden of England, Kent.