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ADVICE ON WASHERS FOR CAM HOLDERS

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droog
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 03 Dec 2019    Post subject: ADVICE ON WASHERS FOR CAM HOLDERS Reply with quote

Hello - I'm new here - sorry for the boring first topic - I'll try and be more interesting in the future . . .

I'm removing the cam holders on a CBR600 in the course of a valve shim change, I have to replace x8 M6 washers which fit the bolts which fasten the cam holders.

I was a bit shocked when I saw the price of the OEM Honda washers;
£3.88 per washer - which is over 30 quid for 8 washers.

I'm going to source some cheaper 'off the shelf' washers for this job - unless more experienced folks on here think I absolutely should be sourcing OEM washers for something like camholders which have to be installed absolutely spot on.

Assuming that the cheaper washers are ok I just want to confirm that I should be ordering aluminium 'sealing' washers for this job - and not steel etc - on the basis that this is the same type of washer as OEM? (so it seals and torques up properly when bolted down).

Sorry for being so pedantic and paranoid for something as mundane as a washer - but this is my first valve clearance adjustment and I want to get all the details spot on.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 03 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would use the OEM washers in such a critical application. They will be of a specific hardness and profile.
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droog
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 03 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think you are right Forced - I'll bite the bullet and go OEM - not worth cutting corners on engine related stuff for the sake of thirty quid.

I appreciate the advice.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 05 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are you replacing them, can't they be reused?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 05 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just re-use the washers. Lots of times they specify fitting new when it's just a precaution. The rubber washers under Suzuki cam cover bolts is one example - don't know anyone who has fitted new ones of those.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 05:37 - 06 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder the logic of replacing only the washers and not the bolts and washers?
Unless the washers deform when torque to spec.

Why not ask a dealer, say something like, 'Why are the washers replaced?' Rolling Eyes

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 08:38 - 06 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are aluminium the are going to deform a certain amount under a certain torque.

Solely for that reason, as much as I would cringe at the cost, I would use OEM's even though logic tells me it probably wouldn't really matter.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 06 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
If they are aluminium the are going to deform a certain amount under a certain torque.

Solely for that reason, as much as I would cringe at the cost, I would use OEM's even though logic tells me it probably wouldn't really matter.


If the OEM says fit this or that then I most usually fit wotthey say.
Reason is the OEM probably has more experience from their own work and feedback from the field.

The other reason is the work involved to replace if a thing failed and is buried under several layers of labour to get at it. (Providing it hasn't assploaded by then.)

The main reason is The first rule of the sea.
If it can happen then it will happen.
Reliability is an engineered phenomenon not just luck.
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droog
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PostPosted: 15:26 - 06 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

Quote:
HKP; Why are you replacing them, can't they be reused?


Hi HKP - Because they are aluminium washers they compress slightly when torqued up – for basic external components re-use isn't really a problem – but these are the cam holders which is an engine component – they have to sit exactly flat on the cylinder head and have to be torqued up to the same spec evenly and in sequence across the length and breadth of the component – so it's one of those jobs where I prefer to follow the shop manual by the letter rather than take any chances.

Quote:
Pete; I would just re-use the washers. Lots of times they specify fitting new when it's just a precaution. The rubber washers under Suzuki cam cover bolts is one example - don't know anyone who has fitted new ones of those


Hi Pete; yes, I expect that you are right – but this is my first cams out job and based on my experience level I would prefer to follow the manual to the letter and use new washers.

Quote:
MCN; I wonder the logic of replacing only the washers and not the bolts and washers?
Unless the washers deform when torque to spec.
Why not ask a dealer, say something like, 'Why are the washers replaced?'


Hi MCN; yes, good point, I wonder if the Honda dealers actually change these washers when doing a shim swap?

Quote:
Polar Bear; If they are aluminium the are going to deform a certain amount under a certain torque.
Solely for that reason, as much as I would cringe at the cost, I would use OEM's even though logic tells me it probably wouldn't really matter.


Hi PB; yes, I have come to exactly the same conclusion – and I am definitely cringing at the cost . . .

Quote:
MCN; If the OEM says fit this or that then I most usually fit wotthey say.
Reason is the OEM probably has more experience from their own work and feedback from the field.
The other reason is the work involved to replace if a thing failed and is buried under several layers of labour to get at it. (Providing it hasn't assploaded by then.)
The main reason is The first rule of the sea. If it can happen then it will happen. Reliability is an engineered phenomenon not just luck.


Hi MCN; Excellent comment, totally agree.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 19:20 - 06 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess about this is that they say "Use new ones" because they are annealed and work harden when used. You could probably re-use them, maybe annealing first, or use new ones (search for "6.5mm" aluminium sealing washers (I think the ID someone said is 6.5mm)). Unsure why copper couldn't be substituted.
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droog
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 07 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
My guess about this is that they say "Use new ones" because they are annealed and work harden when used. You could probably re-use them, maybe annealing first, or use new ones (search for "6.5mm" aluminium sealing washers (I think the ID someone said is 6.5mm)). Unsure why copper couldn't be substituted.


Yes, I was reading about annealing when I was looking into cheaper substitutes - but because I'm not an expert engineer or metallurgist I came to the conclusion that I should stick to the Honda Shop + Haynes manual instructions and replace like for like.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 09 Dec 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
My guess about this is that they say "Use new ones" because they are annealed and work harden when used. You could probably re-use them, maybe annealing first, or use new ones (search for "6.5mm" aluminium sealing washers (I think the ID someone said is 6.5mm)). Unsure why copper couldn't be substituted.


Probably coz the cam support us clamped between aluminium using steel bolts.
The torque will be critical to protect the head threads. Copper won't crush as much/as easily.
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