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this week I are bin pulling me wire again

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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 00:54 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: this week I are bin pulling me wire again Reply with quote

Picked an abandoned project off the shelf recently.

CX500 and 650 engines with Transistorised ignition use two pulsers mounted at the rear for timing signals
to trigger the spark units which in turn fire the coils.
All other ignition components are either still available or alternatives exist but the pulsers are NLA new.
This is a shame because the TI system is far better than the early CDI system and usually pretty damn reliable.

https://imgur.com/UemUaG2.jpg

The pulsers dont fail often, I've never had one fail in 10 years
When they do fail, one usually breaks down first and that's enough to stop play
and as their shape is unique to the L or R position, swapping from another set may only work if you find
a good SH one from the same side as your failed one and you're never sure how much life is left
in 30+year old one anyway.

I started taking a few failed ones apart a few years ago now, but as I have good spare units
and never had one fail on me, it was never a desperate issue to get done.

I knew I could wind a coil, I just wanted to see if I could
strip out, rewind and reassemble them in a timely and efficient way to produce a useful repair

On early efforts I removed so much of the body that I would have had to make shuttering or moulds to
fill with potting or epoxy to support and protect the new coil
it seemed to make the process too fiddly and time consuming IMO
I lost interest at that point

https://imgur.com/VWzXjRk.jpg


I later realised that cutting into just 2 faces would allow me to remove the old coils and fit new ones
with minimal potting and follow the original shape easier.
I made a jig to do this on my machine but later, found a Dremel with a 2.5 end mill is just as good if not better
quicker and less hassle too.

https://imgur.com/l8A5lis.jpg

Ok, so now I have a strip down process that doesn't take an age and works.

Testing:
Having to at least move the engine forward to fit another set of fully assembled pulsers
then refit the engine to test it without having a reasonable idea if they'd work or not
didnt seem like a good idea to me.
Some sort of test bed with rework options for any faulty ones did, so I built a rig to hold a spare ATU
I could spin to check the waveforms insulation etc were AOK before final potting up and assembly.
Then at least I'd a have some confidence it would work beforehand.
Here it is with known good pulsers ready to set up a bench mark for
my DIY ones

https://imgur.com/ZBSAdJH.jpg


Next, build the coils.
The wire I removed was 0.06xmm or 42awg as near as dammit and the manual states a nominal resistance of 530 0hms @ 20C
with an acceptable variation of 50 ohms either way, a bit of leeway there then.

I've had a reel of 42 gauge double insulated transformer wire for ages but reliable counting meant well.... counting, lotsa counting.
I considered building an Arduino type thing with motor, pulleys LCD display and all that shit
but K.I.S.S. right? so I bought a hand winder for £18.99.

The spindle was too long, too thick and useless for my purposes so I sawed it off short and used a 10mm collar
to hold a wooden 'tongue' thing to hold the bobbins I made from gasket paper and heat shrink.
An initial varnish keeps the end plates in place for winding

This is the rough initial setup but I'm making a proper/better reel holder before making any more coils.

https://imgur.com/CTFxdor.jpg

I dab the bobbin with transformer varnish before during and after winding so when it sets the coil is solid
and then give it a bit of glass tape to finish it off.

My second attempt after ballsing up the first one gave me 510 ohms at 4000 turns
Pretty damn close that, I'll do another at 4000 and test them on the rig before making any changes.
The handle drives the spindle at 8:1 so 500 turns gives 4000 winds and only takes 10-15 minutes or so

https://imgur.com/h0jkV7k.jpg

Thats all for now, shitty pics due to my being lazy and using the phone cam
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno why but this type of messing reminds me of those tricksters who claim to have invented free energy motors..

Always good to see people willing to repair stuff like this. They might look like a complex sealed box but as you've shown, they're nothing more than a hidden coil with a particular specification.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are indeed a man to be admired. Good work..
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top Sausage Sir Thumbs Up

More of the same please so that we all may learn and not be so reliant on the corporations/manufacturers.

Who wants to buy a new one when you can mend the old one Thumbs Up
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work. People think that those little black blocks contain magic but they are nothing more than a coil of wire.

Last coil I had to wind needed 14,000 turns. I set my lathe to 700rpm and used a stopwatch.
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies
"Its just a bloody coil of wire" indeed
It bugged me a bike would be effectively useless for the want of 2 small coils of wire.
The winding itself is pretty simple, its the whole process of stripdown and rebuilding
that seemed like an longwinded fiddly arseache at first and I wanted to see if I could do it in a
timely efficient way.

What got me thinking about it and picking it up again was a guy who often brings
me his YBR 125 efi asking about his stator.
His was fine as it happened but I found a new Yamaha stator assembly was £225 and you couldn't
buy the pulse coil seperately.
That meant if the charge coils were ok and you just needed a pulse coil
you had to buy the whole thing.
Sod that.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:
Thanks for the replies
"Its just a bloody coil of wire" indeed
It bugged me a bike would be effectively useless for the want of 2 small coils of wire.
The winding itself is pretty simple, its the whole process of stripdown and rebuilding
that seemed like an longwinded fiddly arseache at first and I wanted to see if I could do it in a
timely efficient way.

What got me thinking about it and picking it up again was a guy who often brings
me his YBR 125 efi asking about his stator.
His was fine as it happened but I found a new Yamaha stator assembly was £225 and you couldn't e
buy the pulse coil seperately.
That meant if the charge coils were ok and you just needed a pulse coil
you had to buy the whole thing.
Sod that.

See this is what I mean...... the large established bike manufacturers appear to make bikes that are intentionally difficult to work on, with parts they don’t want you to be able to repair.
I remember somewhere reading about Hon... one of the big bike manufacturers deliberately building in obsolescence into their bikes.
For example they would stop producing one specific part for that bike, knowing that when that bike breaks down, it can’t be fixed and the punter may consider buying a new bike.
Maybe I read the article in my dream??

Pics and explanations all greatly received, even if they are not immediately absorbed or understood.... stuff trickles into your head without you realising Thumbs Up
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 05 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH there is a good argument for fully encapsulating the pickup coils. Is the plastic housing actually hollow inside? Looks like you had to chew the whole space out with the dremel.

BTW if it ever helps there's a handy page for figuring coil parameters:

https://www.circuits.dk/calculator_multi_layer_aircore.htm
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 21 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, after a few balls ups some progress

First to answer Petes question
As far as I can see, the original bobbins are wound, taped, dropped in then sealed
probably thermally, in the assembly.
Here's a pic of one I cut out without completely destroying it

https://imgur.com/ytljfl9.jpg

The windings came out loosely so they were not potted, just taped.
I think its feasible someone with enough practise, patience and dexterity could probably disassemble one
and re use the bobbin.

Pete very kindly sent me some 3D printed Bobbins based on my ill thought out, vague dimensions and I wound a few sets before realising my error.

The winding process even with such fine wire, exerts enough pressure to push out the end plates
so the overall thickness too damn close to the magnetic tip the rotor sweeps past and doesn't give much room for potting them
Bollox!
https://imgur.com/B819noH.jpg

more clearance

https://imgur.com/yrkmuWW.jpg

Trial and error and all that eh?
I put the project aside for a day or two as I sulked then had another go.


I made two bobbins the hard way and stiffened them with epoxy then wound 4100 turns on them
and got about 540/550 ohms on them which was promising.
These at least sat down without fouling the magnet/rotor area so testing for balls ups
as I went, I soldered on heat resistant wire and potted them in JB weld.

https://imgur.com/0NasygU.jpg

Testing:
My home made test rig isn't tool room quality, it's knocked up from pieces of MDF flooring
and Perspex bolted together
In use, the rotor is expected to spin past the pulser tip at a distance close to 0.5mm
Distances even just slightly closer or further away will affect the induced voltage so a gap of say 3mm
probably wont give much of signal.
Speed also has an effect, the higher the speed, the higher the voltage.
Flux density/strength of magnet field plus number and thickness of windings are also factors.

All I could reasonably expect is to get a fair/ballpark idea of a pulsers effectiveness
and my DIY ones gave as a good waveform as the stock ones.
I ran the rotor with a battery drill with a hex key in the chuck
10 hz Frequency equates to 600 rpm
Voltage variations from old to new pulsers are probably due to air gap variations
which were just eyed up as I fitted them.
Old

https://imgur.com/iReeTyM.jpg

New

https://imgur.com/HLeq0iv.jpg





I'm satisfied that electrically they'll behave very closely to the stock pulsers



Thassit I'm done with this project.

Thanks to Pete for the generous donation of bobbins.
I don't need a pulser so its not high priority, I just wanted to know that if I had to,
I could build a set of working pulsers and complete a project I'd left half done for years.
I could do it again and probably better due to the lessons learnt but it was always
in the back of my mind that a gear tooth sensor could probably do a better job.

All the off the shelf sensors I found were too big physically for the limited space
but I found gear tooth sensing ICs from Allegro that will run up to 24V and cope with temps up to 150C
and those would be my choice.
They give a good clean output at any speed and are a lot more forgiving on air gap variations.
A bit of base plate modding and one of these things would be my choice.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GIIAAOSwEetV~71z/s-l500.jpg
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 22 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

My spare engine is now assembled
https://imgur.com/YlKBcnR.jpg
https://imgur.com/yq3Tks1.jpg
I've since sprayed the rocker covers silver
I used a spare car battery to spin it up sans plugs to check oil pressure and
that oil is getting up to the rockers
All looks good so will stash it away for a while
It has the rebuilt ignition pulsers fitted and I'll fire it up in anger in the summer
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Old Thread Alert!

There is a gap of 1 year, 87 days between these two posts...

Brava210
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 17 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Curtains
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bugzsprinter
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 12 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll order 10!
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struan80
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PostPosted: 17:56 - 17 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faraday has a lot to answer for.

Good job mate. Reminds me of skimming commutators on DC motors back in the day.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 00:17 - 18 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, this is an old thread.

Proper engineer though, that WD Forte bloke...
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 07:06 - 18 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

necro bumping for '90s curtains?

I will allow it

objection overruled
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 18 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, them curtains was too long so I did a proper man job
and hacked them orf a bit.

I know, I know, I should have MTFU even more and used some gaffer tape to tidy the ends off but I couldn't be arsed
BUT
there's hope
I recently got a broken Singer electric sewing machine offn that Freegle.
Never really played much attention to them before and it was quite interesting to
fix the motor control and gearing then reassemble and retime the thing.
Now, can I wind bobbins, set up the thread, and do straight stitching
zig zag stitching, Ric rac stitching and wait for it....
Faggot stitching
Yeah you heard me, faggot stitching, get over it
its how we scooter boys roll OK?

I got it initially cos I thought I might try and make a bike seat cover from vinyl but I spose I could put hems on them curtains next time I
drag it out to faggot stitch me antimacassars.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 19 Dec 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

WD Forte wrote:

I got it initially cos I thought I might try and make a bike seat cover from vinyl but I spose I could put hems on them curtains next time I
drag it out to faggot stitch me antimacassars.


Perfect thing for stitching vinyl, an old singer is man-enough to punch through it. It's a bastard to do though, you may find it easier to turn the wheel slowly by hand rather than using the motor. Also use a brand new, super-sharp needle and keep the tension reasonably low or your thread will keep snapping. It needs to punch a tidy hole or the vinyl will grip the thread against the needle as it pushes through.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 2 years, 101 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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