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Water Heating System

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GettinBetter
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Joined: 20 Jun 2019
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Water Heating System Reply with quote
After reading the 'Keeping warm' thread in Touring & Exploration, it got me thinking...
With the absence of limitless electrical generation, I thought perhaps the water heating circuit could be tapped into, to create heated seats? I'd need to turn it off in the warmer months but...

Is this how they heat commercial seats or are they electric?

Just a thought.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The ones in cars are electric, for a bike seat with quite a small area, and you only heat it a modest amount say 20C electric would be more realistic - whether it's worthwhile is another matter but admittedly climbing on a bike covered in frost is not very pleasant Laughing
It's extremities which get cold first though. That part of your anatomy is relatively easy to keep warm.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
''My seat is leaking'' thread coming soon.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
It would be ridiculously complicated to use the coolant to heat the seat in comparison to an electrical element, and that's before you realise that you need to be able to remove the seat relatively easily.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
It would be ridiculously complicated to use the coolant to heat the seat in comparison to an electrical element, and that's before you realise that you need to be able to remove the seat relatively easily.

Especially on any of my bikes.. they're air-cooled!

However I do have recollection of a water-heated handle-bar, for water-cooled bikes... advantage that heat is put to the extremities that are more likely to suffer cold. ISTR it was a bit of a shedologist contraption rather than a viable commercial product and the issues, apart from tapping in to the cooling system without leaks, were that you want hot water bot ends of the bars, and dont really want hoses hanging off the ends of the grips. ISTR that that was tackled with a double-skin pipe, so water was fed into of the middle of the bar, directed to the ends via an internal pipe, then returned to the middle to return to the cylinder head. Complicated and expensive to make though, BUT the biggest issue was really to do with heat regulation; ever touched a hot cylinder head? So controlling the temperature of the grips/bars with taps and valves and 'lag' between the engine starting and water getting warm, and more getting the heat to the grip/bar and not letting it get to hot to hold.

I suspect that these issues would be as daunting on any heating system that tried to take the waste heat from the cooling system. Which is a shame, because the infernal combustion engine is horrendously inefficient, and something like 60% of the calorific value of the fuel is wasted as heat to the atmosphere, so scavenging any of it would be a very useful thing, compared to having to burn even more fuel to turn inefficiently into kinetic energy, to turn that just as inefficiently into electric, b-u-t comes down to the practicality and convenience and ultimately the 'comsumer-freindly-productionability' of the scheme.

Could be an interesting uni thesis, but I doubt it would fare very well in the Dragon's Den!
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I believe the new 900 tiger has an electrically heated seat.
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
...However I do have recollection of a water-heated handle-bar, for water-cooled bikes...


Ah, great idea.

Teflon-Mike wrote:
...that that was tackled with a double-skin pipe, so water was fed into of the middle of the bar, directed to the ends via an internal pipe, then returned to the middle to return to the cylinder head...


So much like the Volvo B20 marine engines head cooling arrangement then. Had to remove many a core plug to check/replace the copper pipe inside. So simple yet so effective.

Teflon-Mike wrote:
...BUT the biggest issue was really to do with heat regulation; ever touched a hot cylinder head? So controlling the temperature of the grips/bars with taps and valves and 'lag' between the engine starting and water getting warm, and more getting the heat to the grip/bar and not letting it get to hot to hold....


Sounds like a job for an inline thermostat valve with a negative temp coefficient, & I don't think the time lag would be too much of an issue as you'd be warm initially when you start off on your trek, you just need something to prevent excessive heat loss.


Teflon-Mike wrote:
...because the infernal combustion engine is horrendously inefficient, and something like 60% of the calorific value of the fuel is wasted as heat to the atmosphere, so scavenging any of it would be a very useful thing, compared to having to burn even more fuel to turn inefficiently into kinetic energy, to turn that just as inefficiently into electric...


So true, sadly not many people realise this fact.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:37 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The heat coming off the radiator keeps your knees warm Smile But other than that the most efficient way of distributing around such a small vehicle as a motorcycle has to be electricity.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your credibility is in inverse proportion to how many times teffers agrees with you.

If you start agreeing with him you may as well cut your balls off yourself.
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sound like someone wants to reinvent wheel by putting corners on it

Think it through!
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 22:18 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
WD Forte wrote:
...Think it through!


Yup always do...part of the process, & just 'cos I'm thinking about it, doesn't mean I'll actually do it... even though I could... it's just that I've got enough projects on at the moment, and need to focus on them.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 11 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
My Trophy has electric heated seats, wonderful things in winter.

The alternator on my bike has a stupidly large output though because of all the electrical gubbins on it.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Teflon-Mike wrote:
I do have recollection of a water-heated handle-bar, for water-cooled bikes... advantage that heat is put to the extremities that are more likely to suffer cold. ISTR it was a bit of a shedologist contraption rather than a viable commercial product and the issues, apart from tapping in to the cooling system without leaks, were that you want hot water bot ends of the bars, and dont really want hoses hanging off the ends of the grips

Once upon a time I was going to run a 10mm copper take-off from an exhaust pipe on my M63 and run it to the middle of the handlebars. The exhaust would have exited from the end of each grip. Didn't get around to it. Might've been fun.
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
....The alternator on my bike has a stupidly large output though because of all the electrical gubbins on it.


Nice, mine is the opposite, enough to run the stock bits, and that's it. I could as others have suggested on here replace stock with LED's etc, but as the max is quoted at 5krpm, then at the lower rpm you can bet it's about half the quoted 360W or less. Yet there's all that heat being wasted...mm, need a rev counter Very Happy

Wouldn't it be great if I did a search and a bloody great stator was available for this model... that's where I'll start, and explore the possibility of getting it rewound, then there's the regulator which'll prolly need upgrading...

Not to mention I went out yesterday (5 degs), and wasn't cold, so maybe it's not so important anyway...
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
GettinBetter wrote:
WD Forte wrote:
...Think it through!


Yup always do...part of the process, & just 'cos I'm thinking about it, doesn't mean I'll actually do it... even though I could... it's just that I've got enough projects on at the moment, and need to focus on them.


...but don't overthink it!
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Robby
Dirty Old Man



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PostPosted: 16:11 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
When an electric heated seat fails, the fuse blows and the seat doesn't get hot.

If you were running engine coolant through it and something went wrong, you'd have boiling water on your balls.
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
When an electric heated seat fails, the fuse blows and the seat doesn't get hot.

If you were running engine coolant through it and something went wrong, you'd have boiling water on your balls.


Yeah, but at least they wouldn't freeze or corrode. Cool
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
...Once upon a time I was going to run a 10mm copper take-off from an exhaust pipe on my M63 and run it to the middle of the handlebars. The exhaust would have exited from the end of each grip. Didn't get around to it. Might've been fun.


That's it....I'm gonna contact Colin Furze, as ask him how many of these ideas he could get working on a bike... you never know..

https://www.youtube.com/user/colinfurze
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 12 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
GettinBetter wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
...Once upon a time I was going to run a 10mm copper take-off from an exhaust pipe on my M63 and run it to the middle of the handlebars. The exhaust would have exited from the end of each grip. Didn't get around to it. Might've been fun.


That's it....I'm gonna contact Colin Furze, as ask him how many of these ideas he could get working on a bike... you never know..

https://www.youtube.com/user/colinfurze

Not *all* the exhaust would have gone up the 10mm, though! I bet it would have coked up. Anyway, you know what'll happen if Furze gets on it, there'll be some sort of LOx injection system or something and the M63 would be rocket-powered (it might even do 75MPH then).
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 03:01 - 13 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have seen someone route the coolant through the handlebars...

I have also seen someone run corrugated ducting over the header pipe on his morini 3 1/2, attach it to a flexible hose with a computer fan on the end and stick it up his jacket. He had a hula-hoop stitched into the jacket to allow the hot air to circulate. This was great, even blew hot air up his helmet and kept the visor clear. All wen well until he rode it through a ford at which point it turned into a wearable sauna... How we laughed!
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 23 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shouldn't this be in the car section?

Oh aye, this is a motorbike forum there's no car section.

MtFU or get a car. 🤣

The engine runs between 80 and 100 degrees Centipede. It would cook your Arse.
Any system would require some sort of temperature regulation to work properly.
Just using a small flow and relying on the heat dissipating as control would be massively ineffective.
Electric is most efficient.
Even electric heat seating is marginally effective at keeping you warm.
The best way is not get cold. Insulation to keep body heat in. Layers. Wind and waterproof clothing.
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2wheelLover51
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Gentlemen be seated Reply with quote
If I remember correctly a while back there was a scooter which used to duct a portion of the heated air from the rad. or cylinder up towards the rider for winter heating. Needless to say it didn't work... Crying or Very sad
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:40 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: Gentlemen be seated Reply with quote
2wheelLover51 wrote:
If I remember correctly a while back there was a scooter which used to duct a portion of the heated air from the rad. or cylinder up towards the rider for winter heating. Needless to say it didn't work... Crying or Very sad


My Goldwing did that. You had lower vents in the fairing that took air directly from behind the radiator. Just for use in cold weather and it worked after a fashion. I can't remember if that was the 1500 or the 1800 though. Old age and senility creeping up. I know I still used the electrically heated everything as well though. Laughing
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 30 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
I have also seen someone run corrugated ducting over the header pipe on his morini 3 1/2, attach it to a flexible hose with a computer fan on the end and stick it up his jacket. He had a hula-hoop stitched into the jacket to allow the hot air to circulate. This was great, even blew hot air up his helmet and kept the visor clear. All wen well until he rode it through a ford at which point it turned into a wearable sauna... How we laughed!


Didn't BabyYam have some sheepskin muffs made from an old coat with some ducts coming off the header into them? Or did I make that up?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 30 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Shaggy D.A. wrote:


Didn't BabyYam have some sheepskin muffs made from an old coat with some ducts coming off the header into them? Or did I make that up?


Definitely had the sheepskin muffs. Not sure on the ducted air. Charcoal handwarmers seem to ring a bell?
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 4 years, 79 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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