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What makes a bike good in corners?

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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

I've had my first bike a little while now. 125 with knobblies. I love the bike but I HATE cornering on it. Could just be a confidence thing, not knowing how far I can lean it, but I feel like I have to take corners really slowly - much slower than the cars around me do, leading to one BMW driver aggressively overtaking in a stupid place, which could have ended badly for me had I not done a lifesaver check at a time when really, I shouldn't have had to make one, but did anyway because I could feel him behind me getting jumpy.

I will pass my full test soon and upgrade. For my next bike, I don't want something super super fast, but I want something that I feel really confident cornering at the same speed as other traffic on. Something with a ton of grip. What kind of thing should I look for? Wide tyres? definitely not knobblies I know that. Is a heavier bike more planted on the ground, even in corners? Is a higher seat better or worse? I feel very high up on my little 125 dual sport, like the centre of gravity is high, but as a respected member here pointed out in another thread, being high is good. Try skate boarding sitting down and you will see why. Perhaps you want a bike with a low centre of gravity, but a high seat? I don't know guys, I'm still learning this stuff!

Was considering something like a FZR400? Looks hella cool, sounds hella cool, way faster than I actually need even though its slow by bike standards, and should handle well in corners? I know people usually recommend 500cc commuter bikes for new riders, but honestly, I think I would feel safer on a sports bike? I feel like a FZR400 is going to have more grip than something like a Kawasaki ER5 and I am therefore less likely to fuck up and end up under the wheels of a lorry?

I get the benefits of a slower bike for beginners, but I have the self control to not blast it everywhere, and seems like having an underpowered bike with poor handling would be more dangerous?
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colink98
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

the rider.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinK98 wrote:
the rider.


What if the rider is shit and he needs all the help he can get?
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 12:04 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
ColinK98 wrote:
the rider.


What if the rider is shit and he needs all the help he can get?


The rider should practice more, possibly change the tyres to more road orientated ones.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 12:20 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:


The rider should practice more, possibly change the tyres to more road orientated ones.


The rider is practicing and taking riding school lessons, and will be changing bike to something with more road orientated ones soon Smile Aside from "road" not "50/50" what makes a good road tyre for real conditions, as opposed to race conditions? I.e. a country road with gravel, mud e.c.t. as opposed to a perfect race track? Wider is better? What about diameter? How does a 17" wheel corner compared to a 19" wheel?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
What makes a bike good in corners?

Knobbly tyres do not make a bike good in corners at least not on tarmac.

So anything with vaguely good road tyres fitted will seem at least a million times faster through corners than your 125 dual sport thing. I'd go for something which is less obscure than a ~30 year 400cc though.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:

The rider is practicing and taking riding school lessons, and will be changing bike to something with more road orientated ones soon Smile Aside from "road" not "50/50" what makes a good road tyre for real conditions, as opposed to race conditions? I.e. a country road with gravel, mud e.c.t. as opposed to a perfect race track? Wider is better? What about diameter? How does a 17" wheel corner compared to a 19" wheel?


Stop over thinking it, just practice & relax
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
I've had my first bike a little while now. 125 with knobblies. I love the bike but I HATE cornering on it.

I'm not surprised.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
CorriganJ wrote:
I've had my first bike a little while now. 125 with knobblies. I love the bike but I HATE cornering on it.

I'm not surprised.


In hindsight, it might not have been the best choice of bike but I fell in love with it because it felt like a real bike. It's big for a 125, and it has substance, whereas a lot of the smaller CGs and YBRs felt... tiny, like toys.

But, it's a learning process. This is why we have first bikes - so we know what we want in our second bike! I'm still happy with the purchase, it's a quality bike and its never let me down. Just going to use it to pass my A test and get on something different Smile

Very tempted to get something with rearsets and a fairing for my second bike. Just because its the polar opposite of what I have now. That way I can compare the riding positions and the sensation of having vs not having a fairing. I don't know if I will like a sportsbike with rearsets, but there is only one way to find out. Its trial and error.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

What sort of cornering are we talking about?

Sports bikes are great at hurtling down the road and going round a bend at faster speeds than other bikes with their wide tyres but it doesn't necessarily follow they're any good at turning right at the lights at walking speed Smile

The point of bike tyres is to have as much contact with whatever surface you're on. Knobblies will have great contact with loose dirt, gravel and mud 'cos they can really dig into that but on hard surfaces only half the rubber is actually contacting.

You have a great bike for agility (at slow speeds) much better arguably than a sport bike you just need road tyres on it.

Maybe an adventure bike for next one?
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seeyalater
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

cornering when new is terrifying never mind being on nobbleys.
it was my main fear during training. MOD1 helps get some confidence back, but these are road bikes with good tyres on good tarmac, then back onto normal roads but you have more feel for the bike and cornering.

The rider is the most important as said already, then a good road worthy bike with good tyres. first time pass that are cheap to insure too are 600 bandits, zzr600 (fast too) cbr600 are nice but insurance seems high. I got guote for fzr600 and it wasnt too bad. 650 bandit was the cheapest iof the lot to insure. not as fast as others though. depends on the bike you like and how you want to sit,, are you doing long or short journeys etc.

all good fun and learning is the best way forward, look up MCRIDER on youtube for some cornering advice..
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
In hindsight, it might not have been the best choice of bike but I fell in love with it because it felt like a real bike. It's big for a 125, and it has substance, whereas a lot of the smaller CGs and YBRs felt... tiny, like toys.

The 125's not the problem for cornering. Knobblies are not designed for cornering on the road, and break away like mad. OK on outfits, but only last about 3 minutes Wink

EDIT: What 125 did you buy?
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Kentol750
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try looking on bridgstone site to see if they do a trailwing in your sizes. Or Michelin anakee adventure, or Pirelli scorpion. I've used all 3 instead of shitting it around corners and they still work for a bit of green fun. (Other more road biased tyres are available, not knowing bike or size, I'd recommend being a bit more specific.)
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:04 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Re: What makes a bike good in corners? Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:

Very tempted to get something with rearsets and a fairing for my second bike. Just because its the polar opposite of what I have now. That way I can compare the riding positions and the sensation of having vs not having a fairing. I don't know if I will like a sportsbike with rearsets, but there is only one way to find out. Its trial and error.


If you feel you must, then so be it, but you're at the very start of the learning curve, so don't be too tempted to throw yourself right in at the deep end, trying to learn everything all at once. There are plenty of upright bikes these days that will give you good handling and performance, but will be a little more forgiving when it comes to finding out what's what.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say if you are thinking about leaning the bike, you are doing it wrong.

When cornering, it does not feel like you are leaning the bike over so if that's what you are trying to do, you will upset things. The bike does lean but it leans because of your steering input and when balanced, doesn't feel like you are leaning at all.

My best advice for someone at your stage is to simply look where you want to go and ride round the corner. Concentrate on being smooth and balanced (side to side and front to back), avoiding changes of speed through the corner and accelerate once you can see the exit (slow in, fast out). Leaning, hanging off or gripping the bars do not help until you are smooth and balanced

There is a whole lot more to cornering, bike setup etc. Books and books worth.

For now: 1) Look where you want to go. 2) Stay smooth.

Most BMWs should be quicker than a motorbike through a corner (not just 125s), they have shitloads more grip and usually pretty well setup suspension. What surprises me is how many people can't corner their cars worth a damn. Maybe you just came across someone who can?

So what makes a bike good in corners. In order of importance: 1) Rider skill/experience. 2) Tyre selection. 3) Suspension setup.

Like when people go to race-schools and get passed on their modern litre superbike by an instructor on a CB500.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the sounds of it, this a confidence issue, no more no less.

Lets tackle the wider tyre issue first of all. Grip is the % of downward force on a tyre that it can transmit sideways. In the scientific calculations the AREA of tyre in contact with the road doesn't come into it. The sideways force than a tyre can transmit is pretty much the downwards force, weight, times the coefficient of friction, between the tyre and the road. So, no a wider tyre wont help here, a tyre with less 'knobbly' tread, wont help much here.

And think about this; I wight approx 200lb, my 125 weighs about 300lb, so the wight the bikes carrying with me on it, is about 500lb. It has two wheels, so aprox 250lb per tyre, the tyres are pumped up to about 25psi so 25lb per square inch.. so the tyres squash until there's aprox 10 square inches of rubber in contact with tar-mac at each end.

If I fitted wider tyres, I wouldn't be any heavier, the bike wouldn't be any heavier there would still be 500lb of weight on the wheels, and if pumped up to the same tyre pressure they would still squash to put EXACTLY the same amount of rubber in contact with the road, and the limit of grip would remain exactly the same.....

Knoblies.... the conventional block tread has big blocks of rubber around the tyre, with a large area of relief groove between them.. this means that each block is not very well supported by the rest of the tyre around it. The limit of grip of that 1/2" square of rubber is the same as is it was a 'slick', without any relief grooving.... b-u-t.... it's got nothing around it to help prop it up, so under load, a knoblie will tend to 'creep'; the actual knobble gripping, and probably gripping rather well, but without the same anount of support it will tend to wobble a bit under the carcas of the tyre.

In trials we use a tyre called a 'Trials Slick'. They are the exact same tread pattern, see ACU/FIM regs for the spec that actually lays down the dimensions for them, b-u-t they are made of super sticky soft compound rubber with an incredibly high co-efficient of 'grip' that will stick like chewing gum to stuff like wet rocks or mossy logs. It is not the tread pattern that makes them sticky... it's the rubber!

On tarmac, entirely possible to get a bike, that probably weighs 2/3 or less of even that of a typical 125, to go around a corner and deck the pegs, that are probably set further from the floor on a comp trials bike for ground clearance than on a road-bike.... and NOT have the bike 'slip' or skid, because they have that much 'grip.. In a similar vein, go look at some of the Tour-De-France footage of them nutters coming down alpine passes! They are on push bikes FFS, that weigh ounces! And on tyres that are less than 1/2" wide, and pumped up to something probably over 100lb/sq-in, that have a contact patch measured in square millimetres! They grip, they are sorry, GO round the bend! And they do it in lycra after shaving their legs.. the nutters!

SO! its not how wide the tyre is. Its not even much to do with how heavy the bike be....

This IS significant;y a phobia that is in your head NOT in the machine.

Change the tyres, change the bike, this will NOT remove 'the problem' 'cos its still you and your head on top.....

YES... a better tyre and a heavier bike, 'may' help you build confidence. It tends to be a bit disconcerting when you feel a knobly 'creep', but this is not a lot different to getting used to the way any other bike behaves in operation, its just one of the peculiarities of this kind of bike..... and one that probably does lead to a lot of rather errant conclusions being drawn, like its the style of tyre and the size of the bike that 'matter;... they dont... its YOU and what you expect and how you react to it.

Holding up BMW's on a bendy road... err.. yeah.. blitzen-blasters do that.... probaly nothing to do with how fast or not you tackled the corner.. they just didn't want to be 'stuck' behind the L-Platy they were probably tail-gating... get used.... even without the L-Plate they do this, and I have had folk get frustrated on loose chippings, on a road with "CAUTION LOOSE CHIPPINGS 20MPH" signs along the edge, I have had this, because I have been oberyi9ng the warning signs, and they have wanted to press on at 80+ like the road was newly tarmacced... like I said get used, it happens even without the L-Plate, and you have to ride your road as YOU feel safe to ride, and NOT let other folk try take charge and make you do anything different...

B~U~T, the here and now is that you don't 'like' corners and have a tenancy to over slow for them, cos you have this phobia about your tyres....

I have a phobia about spiders, and its not something you can switch on or off, and having 'mum' take the proverbial cooing over the eight legged beastie and shoving it under my nose, DOES NOT HELP... m~u~m....it's an irrational fear, you cant answer that with 'logic' that the spider is probably more scared of me, and is a lu~v~er~lee creature and eats flies and stuff.. it don't work, I still detest spiders! All you can do is either get used to them, and try not to go into apoplexy when one walks up the bathroom wall... or not get in the bath! Your call...

It's a confidence issue, you have to get used to twats on the road, and find ways to cope with them... or get off the road... the answer is NOT in a new bike or new tyres.. they may help, but that's pandering to the paranoia not coming to terms with it.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking the rider out of the question, the bike's condition is important.

Bad tyres, or underinflated tyres, can cause you to slip on a corner even if you take that corner with the perfect technique, well below the angle of lean possible on that bike, at a low speed. This is a good reason to check tyre pressures and condition before every ride, if you like to push it now and then.

Also, the condition and settings of the rear shock. Inadequate rear damping can make the bike skittish over minor road surface imperfections and take away a sense of feedback when you tip into the corner.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 17:38 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
From the sounds of it, this a confidence issue, no more no less.


You are a scholar and a gent.

Part of my fear of corners is that I recently laid down a pedal bike trying to lean it too far. Took the corner too fast, leant into it to compensate, wheels slipped out from under me (possibly on some decomposing leaves). Bust up my wrist a little, but nothing major. But, if that had been on a public road, and there was a lorry behind me, I wouldn't be writing this.

So yes, it's a mental game. I wouldn't call it a phobia. This is just not knowing how far I can push myself/the bike. And I would be happy to find out on a race track. But not on a public road.

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and take away the completely wrong thing from this post - that I need a heavier bike. Thanks!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 15 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:


Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and take away the completely wrong thing from this post - that I need a heavier bike. Thanks!


A heavier bike will not make you corner better, it will just hurt more if you drop it on your leg.

hth.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 16 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
A heavier bike will not make you corner better,

Where it carries its weight (high up, or low down) might influence how it handles (feels) in corners though.
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recman
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 16 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
ColinK98 wrote:
the rider.


What if the rider is shit and he needs all the help he can get?


Then the rider needs a Striple.

Actually, scratch that. My mate bought a Street Triple R but he was still pants.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 16 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
blah, blah, blah
....a tyre with less 'knobbly' tread, wont help much here...
blah, blah, blah.


Sorry Mike but this is utter tosh.

The rider is inexperienced and driving on stock knobblies that are most likely designed to look like the dogs bollox but are not any use for anything remotely technical, either on or off road.
The grip may well be fine but it will throw a nasty sensation up the forks when cornering which will not inspire confidence.

OP - Have you ever actually taken the bike off road? Bit late now but take a look at some of the fancy supermoto machines zooming around on the roads, you'll be hard pushed to find one that is running on knobblies and for good reason!
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 16 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:
blah, blah, blah
....a tyre with less 'knobbly' tread, wont help much here...
blah, blah, blah.
Sorry Mike but this is utter tosh.


What is? What I actually wrote, or the bit you coppy-pastad out of context?

here, look, I can do dat, too!
mentalboy wrote:
The rider is inexperienced and driving on stock knobblies that are most likely designed to look like the dogs bollox but are not any use for anything remotely technical, either on or off road.
The grip may well be fine but it will throw a nasty sensation up the forks when cornering which will not inspire confidence.


But it's sort of of what I said in the bit you snipped; the knoble will probably grip, it will just wobble under the carcass of the tyre, so 'feel' like its not. But hey ho.... snip away.... at least your not a Rabi.....
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 17 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:


But it's sort of of what I said in the bit you snipped; the knoble will probably grip, it will just wobble under the carcass of the tyre, so 'feel' like its not. But hey ho.... snip away.... at least your not a Rabi.....


There was nothing amiss in the remaining wall of text but you said that a less knobbly tyre won't help much here, I assumed by 'here' you meant the OP's case as that was the purpose of your reply.
I am saying that the OP would get a better feel from the type of slicks that the posers stick on bling supermotos, the OP wouldn't be expected to be grinding pegs on either but as a novice he would feel more comfortable on tarmac with tyres designed specifically for road use. It is for good reason that you don't see Rossi and friends running round tarmac track on knobblies.

The knobblies on my old 500 Thumper were perfect for blatting round Devon's lanes but on a fast bendy A road they made for a most uncomfortable ride at anything above 60mph, for exactly the reasons you posted. It didn't ever go off road but as it spent most of it's life in single lane roads covered in gravel and cowsh I didn't feel the need to run it on a non-knobbly, or more correctly it didn't do any more off roading than the ZZR1100 did, ie a hundred metres up and down a drive of gravel, limestone boulders, mud and pine needles.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 18 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get some really good very grippy road tyres these days in full on off road wheel and tyre sizes. No excuse for using an off road bike soley on the road with knobblies IMO.

Well unless you're trying to wear out a set or don't value having good tyres on your bike? Or worse still unless your one of those sad cunts who thinks that off road bikes or anything hipster or flat tracker loses all its desire and appeal with decent road tyres on it.
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