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Driver avoids jail sentence after death of motorcyclist

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T.C
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Joined: 05 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 24 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
T.C wrote:
The moment a person is disqualified from driving or riding, any insurance policy in force at the time becomes null and void.



How does this square off with this caselaw?

Ste wrote:
The case of Adams v Dunne [1978] R.T.R. 281 involved a defendant who lied to an insurance company by telling them he was not disqualified from driving to obtain insurance. The magistrates held that his policy remained in force because it had not been cancelled at the time he drove, and the charge was dismissed. The case went to the Divisional Court where it was heard by three High Court judges who all agreed with the magistrates. Croom-Johnson, J. said,

“What the facts, as the justices found in the present case, reveal is that here there was an avoidable contract of insurance, and, unless and until the insurance company had taken steps to avoid it, it remained a contract of insurance for the purposes of section 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1972 [now s. 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988].”



The above case relates to the declaration which is a seperate matter and is dealt with under different laws such as a failure to disclose or false declaration, and some of it comes under or is covered by contract law.

In the case of a disqualified driver (in normal circumstances) the insured is required to notify his insurers of the ban straight away.

If the ban is short term, for example a few days or weeks, the insurers may agree to continue with fire and theft cover if the vehicle is off the road.

Section 103 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is the specific section of the road traffic act and within the legislation,

The offence is quite specific in that a driver who is arrested for driving whilst disqualified will not and cannot hold insurance and therefore the offence is complete.

Hope that makes sense...

Last driver I ever arrested was a drunk disqualified driver Rolling Eyes
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 24 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Section 103 makes no mention of insurance.

By the way, failure to disclose (as per your comment) would be not telling your insurance company. Misrepresentation would not telling them on applying for insurance.

It's all contract law and until the insurance company takes steps to void the insurance they are liable for 3rd party insurance (as required by law to drive a vehicle) and they cannot do this retrospectively.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 24 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I will remind you that the courts have found a persons 3rd party insurance to be liable when they've sold a vehicle to someone who is uninsured and they then had a accident.

Just because the police and the insurance underwriter doesn't like it doesn't make it wrong.
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T.C
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Joined: 05 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 24 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I will remind you that the courts have found a persons 3rd party insurance to be liable when they've sold a vehicle to someone who is uninsured and they then had a accident.

Just because the police and the insurance underwriter doesn't like it doesn't make it wrong.


Yes you are right on the first point, in fact I am currently dealing with just such a case, a particularly nasty crash.

The second point, I go back to what I said in that the insured has a requirement to notify their insurers and the insurers will cancel the policy.

A disqualified driver cannot be insured as they do not hold a licence, and one of the requirements of being insured is that the insured must hold a valid and current licence.

Even if the disqualified driver fails to notify his insurers, the offence is still complete because it is held that once ther insurers know about the ban they would cancel the policy back to the date of the disqualification anyway.

So the section 143 offence applies

If you look at your insurance policies you will find that this area is covered. Well it is on mine.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 25 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Show me a case where a court has done someone where the insurance has been invalidated retrospectively due to failure to disclose something.
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Qyburn
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 14 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 19 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think this says it all about car drivers in general ..
Quote:
When he was interviewed Lloyd denied any wrongdoing, and said he had carried out the manoeuvre in accordance with his normal standard of driving, and did not see the motorbike.

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Andy_Pagin
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Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 20 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
FWIW this appears to be the deceased facebook page, right area, similar bike to that described.
https://www.facebook.com/people/Jay-Brownhill/100012264886117
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Jmoan
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 15 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's funny the report makes multiple points on how being banned from driving will affect his life which would ironically justify the biker riding normally without a licence.
Country roads are also the kind where drivers don't like being stuck behind cyclists either.

T.C wrote:

A disqualified driver cannot be insured as they do not hold a licence, and one of the requirements of being insured is that the insured must hold a valid and current licence.



Is that a legal position or some informal deal between the state and insurance companies?

I was also going to say,for the sake of the argument, if someone had enough money to put in a deposit they would be exempt from normal insurance but that option has been removed not so long ago.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 18:58 - 15 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jmoan wrote:
It's funny the report makes multiple points on how being banned from driving will affect his life which would ironically justify the biker riding normally without a licence.
Country roads are also the kind where drivers don't like being stuck behind cyclists either.

T.C wrote:

A disqualified driver cannot be insured as they do not hold a licence, and one of the requirements of being insured is that the insured must hold a valid and current licence.



Is that a legal position or some informal deal between the state and insurance companies?

I was also going to say,for the sake of the argument, if someone had enough money to put in a deposit they would be exempt from normal insurance but that option has been removed not so long ago.


We've already been down this route. Case law states that the insurance company is liable until they notify the insured person that they are no longer insured.

That means 3rd party insurance cannot be cancelled retrospectively.

Under any circumstances.
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Easy-X
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Joined: 08 Mar 2019
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 15 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
We've already been down this route. Case law states that the insurance company is liable until they notify the insured person that they are no longer insured.

That means 3rd party insurance cannot be cancelled retrospectively.

Under any circumstances.


To be clear: does that mean if one were to have a full comp policy, then get disqualified, fail to inform the insurance company and then stacked your bike into another car the insurance company would have to pay out for the car repair but they'd not have to pick up the tab for the damaged bike?
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 15 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
We've already been down this route. Case law states that the insurance company is liable until they notify the insured person that they are no longer insured.

That means 3rd party insurance cannot be cancelled retrospectively.

Under any circumstances.


To be clear: does that mean if one were to have a full comp policy, then get disqualified, fail to inform the insurance company and then stacked your bike into another car the insurance company would have to pay out for the car repair but they'd not have to pick up the tab for the damaged bike?


Your insurance have to pay the tab for the 3rd party.

They are, however, entitled under contract law to sue you for the costs.

Nobody is aware of any cases where this has happened.
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bhinso
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 17:37 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another one:
https://www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/teen-biker-killed-road-crash-named-luke-paddock

Seems a bit unusual for an 18 year old to be carrying a pillion, but I guess it's possible if he's done full licence on 125's and insurance etc.

"Fly high my beautiful angel, my little brown boy.”

Shocked

EDIT:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=657351541667664&set=a.108623873207103&type=3&theater

Still trying to keep an open mind.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
bhinso wrote:
Another one:
https://www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/teen-biker-killed-road-crash-named-luke-paddock

Seems a bit unusual for an 18 year old to be carrying a pillion, but I guess it's possible if he's done full licence on 125's and insurance etc.

"Fly high my beautiful angel, my little brown boy.”

Shocked

EDIT:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=657351541667664&set=a.108623873207103&type=3&theater

Still trying to keep an open mind.

He does not look particularly brown in the police picture.

I'm still trying to keep an open mind too.
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arry
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Joined: 03 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
bhinso wrote:
Another one:
https://www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/teen-biker-killed-road-crash-named-luke-paddock

Seems a bit unusual for an 18 year old to be carrying a pillion, but I guess it's possible if he's done full licence on 125's and insurance etc.

"Fly high my beautiful angel, my little brown boy.”

Shocked

EDIT:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=657351541667664&set=a.108623873207103&type=3&theater

Still trying to keep an open mind.


Since he says in December 2019 he needs a bike that's 'registered as 125 or lower' I'm gonna throw my hat in ring and say .......no bike licence.
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dynax
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Joined: 06 May 2019
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
One less fukwit on the roads Thumbs Up
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
dynax wrote:
One less fukwit on the roads Thumbs Up

"A 37-year-old car driver was arrested on suspicion of being under the influence of drugs but has been released pending further investigations"

So it wouldn'tve been that cager's fault. That's OK then.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Since he says in December 2019 he needs a bike that's 'registered as 125 or lower' I'm gonna throw my hat in ring and say .......no bike licence.

That's possible. However, exactly what bike was he riding when the crash happened?
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dynax
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Joined: 06 May 2019
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
dynax wrote:
One less fukwit on the roads Thumbs Up

"A 37-year-old car driver was arrested on suspicion of being under the influence of drugs but has been released pending further investigations"

So it wouldn'tve been that cager's fault. That's OK then.


Sorry! That will be two less then Thumbs Up
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bhinso
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 24 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed, this in no way exonerates what the cager has done.

But the laws are there for a reason, IF it was that 450 he was riding with a passenger, then you'd need quite substantial experience.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 4 years, 27 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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