Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Commuting to London on the A3

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Swisscheese
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
Karma :

PostPosted: 19:50 - 24 Jan 2020    Post subject: Commuting to London on the A3 Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm new to biking and BCF. Wondered if anyone had some tips or advice on my commute.

Passed my CBT in the autumn last year and just started commuting at Christmas along the A3 from the Hindhead tunnel into London (Hammersmith and Euston). It's about 100 miles round trip each day.

I don't ride into London during rush hour at the moment, but do ride out during rush hour or late at night. I ride a CB125R naked/neo cafe.

Didn't think anything of the commute before getting the bike as I'm very familiar with the route as a cage passenger. I'm enjoying the discovery of biking so don't get me wrong, but riding my 125 seems very dodgy at times, especially in bad weather.

When I'm in London proper, I don't mind much. Even with agressive road cage types, I feel safe-ish since traffic rarely picks up to 30 and I can filter through the slowest stuff carefully and sometimes use bus lanes. Although a bit worried about getting crushed by lorry/bus or hitting a pisshead in the road. But overall, I love all the fun and advantages of going through London on a bike. Riding around town between Christmas and New Year was magic.

My real worries start though when I'm coming out of London at night on the A3. Just after Roehampton, it becomes a 50 mph 6 lane dual carriageway up through Tolworth. The cars seem almost bumper to bumper sometimes even when doing 40-50. There is normally someone right up my arse and though I try to leave a decent gap in front, this inevitably gets filled by a car changing into my lane. Plus there are junctions every mile or two, so cars and vans are moving across lanes all the time often without indicating. I've seen a few bikers on this part of the road undertaking cars and filtering between lanes of fast moving traffic to make progress. Doesn't seem right but maybe better than rolling sandwiched between dopey drivers for long periods?

On top of that, there seems to be lots of builders' rubbish in this part of the commute. In my short few weeks, I got a puncture from a screw, ran over a roof gutter, hit a twisted copper pipe that got flung up at me and narrowly avoided hitting a toolbox!

When the A3 becomes a 70 coming out of London, the traffic spreads out quickly which is great but then I have different worries...There's a lot of uphill out of London so I have trouble keeping up with traffic in the slow lane. This hasn't been too bad except when I was overtaken a couple of times by arseholes partly in my lane for no reason.

It feels more dodgy though when its late at night and there aren't cars about because 90% of the A3 is unlit and when its drizzling or foggy too, I can hardly see a bloody thing. So I don't reckon drivers coming up fast see me too well either. I also can't see obstacles in the road easily. Last night there was a fox lying across my lane. Managed to avoid it only because it was on a lit part of the road and I wasn't doing 70. Another night, I just missed by luck a massive pothole. It wasn't there the night before and was repaired the next day). Oddly though, I see big bike riders hammering it into the dark and rain at well over 70 with no worries. Am I being a pussy?

I've also had trouble riding on the A3 when its windy, especially in the hilly sections. Getting blown about when overtaking lorries or keeping my line in the bends. Storm Brendan wasn't fun.

I'm not whinging. Just wondered if anyone on my commute or similar had any pearls of wisdom to make it safer and more enjoyable.

Cheers
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

TaffyTDM
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 15 Jul 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 00:22 - 25 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Option a) pass tests, get bigger bike, enough to hold your own on the dual carriageway but not so massive as to be a pain in town - you will notice a world of difference even on a cheap as chips er5 / bandit/ faser etc.

B) try coming off on the a307 and ride through claygate, esher, scilly isles and through surbiton, kingston, kingston hill / richmond park and avoid that shitty wacky races section between robin hood and ace of spades until you are on something a bit more capable. It will add about 10 mins each way but on a 125 you will probanly feel a lot more chilled, and you should be around a much more amenable pack of road users
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 00:23 - 25 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome! I know the A3 Smile

Prediction No.1: you will get a full motorcycle licence.

Prediction No.2: you will get a bigger bike.

Trust me, don't fight the inevitable, plan your budget accordingly Smile

Reasons...

You need a big engine and an obnoxious exhaust if you live anywhere remotely close to the Hindhead Tunnel Laughing The fact that a bigger bike makes the rest of your journey easier is just a happy side effect!

Seriously though, a good chunk of your journey would be helped by a faster and more stable bike, anything >125 basically. Windy? don't care, traffic moving fast? don't care, dead fox in the road? don't care... ah feck! there's guts all jammed in me rad grill Sad

You think that 50mph section of the A3 is mad now? You should have seen it when it was 70mph Shocked Now it's trivial to negotiate on a bike that has a little power. The cars hardly vary between 45 & 55 mph and they're effectively static objects to anything with power to drop at the twist of the wrist.

About the only question should be "how big?" Somewhere between 500 & 750cc I suspect. Anything bigger and you might feel a little clumsy in the City.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pigeon
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Sep 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 00:23 - 25 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did it a couple of times on a 125 from Guildford, so bit up the A3 from you.

Would not want to do it regularly. Too many near misses in such a short time frame. Cars moving lanes without checking the biggest problem.

Then in London, people walking and running into the road looking the wrong way (if at all).

It got better with a louder and faster 600.

Pearls of wisdom. Ride down to Haslemere station and get the train. Or a different job.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Swisscheese
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:33 - 25 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for the advice Very Happy Very Happy !

Quote:
Option a) pass tests, get bigger bike, enough to hold your own on the dual carriageway but not so massive as to be a pain in town - you will notice a world of difference even on a cheap as chips er5 / bandit/ faser etc.


Quote:
About the only question should be "how big?" Somewhere between 500 & 750cc I suspect. Anything bigger and you might feel a little clumsy in the City.


I'm aiming to get my DAS done this summer.

I'd also like to get my next bike with ABS too if possible. I have it now on my CB125R. Haven't needed it so far but would like to have it just in case. The problem is its hard to find bikes at 600cc and below with ABS unless they are very new models. So this seems to rule out cheap as chips bikes Sad. Don't really want a shiny newish bike though, more of a shitter as I don't want it nicked and plan on using it a lot and it getting scratched up in London.

I'd quite like a sports bike for the looks but haven't checked into how much the insurance would be for me - new rider coming from a provisional with no car license yet. Maybe something smaller like an R3 would be cheaper and ok for the A3, and light and narrow for around town?

Quote:
B) try coming off on the a307 and ride through claygate, esher, scilly isles and through surbiton, kingston, kingston hill / richmond park and avoid that shitty wacky races section between robin hood and ace of spades until you are on something a bit more capable. It will add about 10 mins each way but on a 125 you will probanly feel a lot more chilled, and you should be around a much more amenable pack of road users


Will definitely get out google maps and have a look at this route this weekend. Sounds like a lot more fun Smile

Quote:
You need a big engine and an obnoxious exhaust if you live anywhere remotely close to the Hindhead Tunnel Laughing


Quote:

It got better with a louder and faster 600.


A nice loud exhaust would be brilliant for the tunnel and for being noticeable when filtering Laughing

Quote:
Pearls of wisdom. Ride down to Haslemere station and get the train. Or a different job.


Unfortunately, the train wouldn't work for me as some nights I leave London after the last train back to Haslemere. Plus I hate public transport and at the moment the 125 is the fastest and cheapest solution by far. But I get your point.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Polarbear
Super Spammer



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:16 - 26 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my view you are aligning two different bikes. The motorway one and the City one.

Normally I'd say get a 650 minimum, I hate how vulnerable I feel on small bikes, but here I would be inclined to try a 300/250 for the city end.

Saying that I've ridden in London on a Goldwing and it wasn't as bad as I expected. Filtering was a bit dicey on that though. Laughing

Your first thing is to pass your test then try different bikes Make a list of what you need and what you would like. ie you NEED decent lights. You would LIKE ABS.

I would do that commute on a Bandit, Fazer, ER5/6 or even a maxi scoot (only if I had a second fun bike) although I have to say i personally wouldn't want to be doing on anything smaller than a 500. I'd shit myself. Laughing

Pass your test and the world is your oyster. Thumbs Up
____________________
Triumph Trophy Launch Edition
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Bhud
World Chat Champion



Joined: 11 Oct 2018
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:26 - 26 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget, when you get your big bike it should be ULEZ-compliant, because there are plans to expand the ULEZ to cover a much wider area. There are lots of great bikes that would suit your needs if it weren't for ULEZ.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

doggone
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 May 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:55 - 26 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the 125 don't get intimidated, you can still command your bit of road by position in lane, and making progress by filtering when it's safe.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:13 - 26 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had enormous fun on the big bikes during training. Uxbridge test centre so fairly urban - not as mad as London obviously. The stability of larger bikes may surprise you - certainly I'd have no qualms riding around the City but that's not to say they're 100% ideal.

I went for an A2 bike in the end to attempt to get the best of both worlds. You never can though, you'll always be wanting a bigger bike on the fast bits and a smaller bike to cut up the taxis Smile
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Swisscheese
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 24 Jan 2020
Karma :

PostPosted: 00:00 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the tips Very Happy Very Happy.

Quote:

Even the 125 don't get intimidated, you can still command your bit of road by position in lane, and making progress by filtering when it's safe.


Starting to enjoy the commute a bit and feeling more confident. Tried a couple of the suggested alternative routes out of London which allowed me to hold my own better Smile.

Looking forward to doing the DAS.

Quote:
In my view you are aligning two different bikes. The motorway one and the City one.

Normally I'd say get a 650 minimum, I hate how vulnerable I feel on small bikes, but here I would be inclined to try a 300/250 for the city end.
.

Quote:
I went for an A2 bike in the end to attempt to get the best of both worlds. You never can though, you'll always be wanting a bigger bike on the fast bits and a smaller bike to cut up the taxis Smile


I'll try to find a school where I can have a go on a couple of different bike types and displacements (if that's possible) to get a feel for what I'd like.

Quote:
Don't forget, when you get your big bike it should be ULEZ-compliant, because there are plans to expand the ULEZ to cover a much wider area. There are lots of great bikes that would suit your needs if it weren't for ULEZ.


If I understood correctly, are all post 2007 bikes automatically compliant?
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 04:12 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/ CBT is NOT a licence, its a learners permit.
If you are competent enough to tackle the daily commute, especially in traffic, on major roads, 'every dang day' you should be more then competent enough to do it just ONCE, probably not in commuter traffic, on test, and get a proper licence for it.
2/ 'Filtering'... it's NOT an RTA recognised practice, its OVER TAKING... a manoeuvre under taken at the rider's risk... and lots of it! Especially as you have absolutely NO special rights or privileges to be doing it, it's OVERTAKING remember, and what you are likely to be overtaking, probably has absolutely NO expectation that you will be there trying to stuff a small motor-vehicle into a tiny 'gap' it has NO right to be in.....
Again.... IF you are competent enough to commute, and more competent enough to filter 'safely'.. you are more than likely safe and competent enough to go pass some bludy tests, and NOT try do it on a learner's permit an L's....

Take a breath, wait until you have stopped stammering, and THINK about that, then turn the proposition upside down... IF you are competent and safe enough to tackle the daily commute,. and more filtering on that commute, and 100 miles a day is a pretty hefty commute... WHY are you doing it on a ruddy learner's permit, and NOT a proper licence? If on the other hand you ARE safe and competent enough to be tackling that commute, and filtering over that distance, that regularly... WHY dont you have a full licence to prove it?

Yes.. go get a full licence!!!

Here and now, IMO you are an accident looking for a place to happen..... with a full licence, and a bigger bike, you probably still would be, b~u~t.. hopefully you'll at least know it!

Moving on....

I have thirty plus years on two wheels to my credit, and remarkably few 'unplanned events' (accidents!). I do NOT, these days regularly commute through city traffic. Nor do I 'Filter' very much.. both are perversely 'daft'.

Roads have speed-limits, that apply equally to bikes as other traffic... you wont get from AtoB any faster by bike than by any other vehicle 'just' because it be bike. The only way that you might save time is by travelling faster than other traffic, and that means, 'overtaking'and or 'speeding' both of which necessarily demand that you accept a MUCH higher degree of risk, and just throwing your leg over a motorbike, means you have already accepted, whether you have concisely thought about it of not, something in the order of 10x the amount of risk of injury or death, to begin with. And you think its a great idea to ramp that risk, by probably 5x more doing it every day on an L-Plate? How much you no wanna get hurt?

Yes, go get that licence!!!!

Bigger bikes and keeping up with cars?!?!? Err, yeah..... you know MY 125 can do 70mph and is as fast as any motorbike of any engine displacement is legally allowed to go in this country... my 750? Is for the most part just as 'Slow', if I ride it sensibly and legally... back to that only making time IF you take more risk, and speed or filter.... How quick do you want to go hurt yourself?

On the 125, around town, I will probably utilise it's small size and manoeuvrability to 'filter' more. It's about the only way to 'make progress' cos it dont bludy go else! On the 750, I will be far more inclined to sit it out with the cars, and maybe filter to the head at a set of trafic lights or such, where I can mitigate the risks of overtaking, knowing that they aren't moving, then exploit the power of the bigger bike to get the chuck out the way in a hurry when the lights change, and be up to road speed before the cars have found first gear... b-u-t.. back to that 'risk'.. and dodging little old ladies with shopping trolleys who saw the lights change and thought it a good time to try cross the road... like I said, risk, and people NOT expecting 'motorbikes' whether in a gap they have every right to be, or not!

So there you go.... Go get a licence.. rethink this 'filtering' malarky.... deal with the roads how you will, just remember that there are about 30x more cars on the road than bikes, and most folk DO NOT look for bikes, they look for CAR or NO-CAR and no car 99% of the time or more means 'gap' so they put themselves in it, whether on foot, a push bike, in a car, lorry bus or JCB.. and you are on bike... with soft bit on the outside... if any-one gonna get hurt, it gonna be YOU!

So, you have a learner's permit, and if you can competently and safely tackle this daily commute, you can have a proper licence. If not, why you trying to commute? More commute long haul, every day, and filter in it?

Advice? Do a LOT of thinking about what you are at.. preferably before you get hurt. Go get a licence, and you dont HAVE to do DAS; tests cost only £130 or so, all in, whatever bike you take them on, and you 'could' go do them on your 125 for an A1-125-only-licence... you would have to spend £30odd on the theory-haz anyway to Do-Daz, and it's all good practice for doing it on the bigger bike when you are likely paying training rates to both have an old duffer watch you wobble, and hire the bike to be wobbling on.... But, get a proper licence, one way or another! And think long and hard about the real risks you are taking for the time you probably aren't saving for it. If getting to work, ooh, maybe 10 minutes earlier is SO important... just get out of bed earlier! All your life and death dicing with the tautliners and other homicidal road menaces, IS for the sake of about the time it takes to have a cup of tea... IS it really worth it?
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 10:43 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add a counter point "filtering" in the City versus suburban/countryside settings are two entirely different things.

Filtering down the A3 at ~60mph between the cars is, as Tef says, probably a daft thing and at least something for the highly skilled and confident.

In town where most of the traffic is <15mph most of the time the whole point of the bike is not be stuck in the grind like all the other plebs.

<side note> most motorbike schools have two bikes: 125s and 650s. They restrict the latter for A2 so you might not get the variety of bikes you were hoping for.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:13 - 29 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Just to add a counter point "filtering" in the City versus suburban/countryside settings are two entirely different things.

Ten Ton Trucks weigh 10ton, whether trhey are in the city, the suburbs or the Sahara... where would you rather be under one?

It makes little or no odds; traffic in the city may not be able to move so fast, but there tends to be more of it, and the drivers tend to be more frustrated and determined to find (without looking!) a way out of it.

Bottom line is its swings and roundabouts, and the stats say, that 'most' collisions happens where there are most objects and most 'control'. ie in the city.

Its no different really, and speed isn't the issue, its the density of duncity, and a one and a half ton Volvo, remains a one and a half ton Volvo, where ever it happens to be on earth..
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

1198
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:35 - 30 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you sit bouncing along on a slowish bike in the gutter some people WILL treat you as a quick pushbike and wedge past. Sit with your wheels where you’d expect the offside wheels of a normal car would travel. Make the lane yours and use it.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts
wintelf94 This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Spam). Unhide this post / all posts.
wintelf94 This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Spam). Unhide this post / all posts.

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:24 - 31 Jan 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

wintelf94 wrote:
Very encouraging. Thumbs Up


You can take your compliments and shove 'em, robot Evil or Very Mad
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

PotatoHead202...
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 10 Feb 2020
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:32 - 12 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can pick up cbf500/cbf600's for around the £1,000 mark with ABS (I paid £540 last year for my cbf500 ABS). It'll be ENORMOUSLY better than the 125 in practically every way imaginable.
Mine is a 56 plate but is ULEZ compliant (I asked Honda for a conformity letter which i then sent to TFL).
Unfortunately, that's about the only advice I can give at the moment. 125's in my experience such for 90% of the time.
____________________
Honda VFR1200F, Honda CBF500 ABS, CZ125 now CZ175
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Undinist
Nearly there...



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:20 - 14 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

After Tolworth the A3 is quite a challenge to ride fast in rush hour. Some of it reminds me of a rollercoaster. If you can master it in the rain and dark with heavy traffic you'll be doing well. Not much else will faze you. Good luck! When you get a big bike I'll race you.

P.S. Swisscheese, do some test rides at BMW Park Lane. They are generous with their demo fleet, perhaps because they're owned by BMW GB. Decent coffee too.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :

PostPosted: 01:06 - 15 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

A3 Tolworth to Wandsworth I know very well Smile Great fun in the middle of the day when it's quieter. It has to be said the tarmac's in pretty good nick; not many unexpected bumps and potholes.

My top tip, if you're going through Wandsworth, is pick the middle lane at the Roehampton turnoff. Once past the Putney roundabout you can nip left after the underpass and get on the bus lane that seems to have changed its signage recently to allow motorcycles and cut out the traffic that bunches up where the three lanes get down to one, heading down the hill.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

MATTT
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:27 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: A3 Reply with quote

I live near there and sometimes ride back from Shannon corner back home
Did it a few times on my Benelli tnt125,Honda grom size thing ,instead of using a bigger bike
It's ok but your stuck in the inside lane most of the time,I used a C90 before that ,
I used 125s as I thought that was the only size bike I could squeeze through the heavy traffic on
I've recently realized a bigger bike is better,swapped to a hornet 900,and now a ER6N,probably changing that to a CB500X
The CB500 is a do anything bike,we are doing a euro trip this year and I will commute on it too
It's light but doesn't get blown about ,good for filtering ,and really economical compared to the hornet ,fast enough to cruise at 70 ,with a screen fitted as standard
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 4 years, 36 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.15 Sec - Server Load: 0.16 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 136.72 Kb