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Cbr600 2002 Engine wont idle/run when warm

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kramdra
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 19 Mar 2020    Post subject: Cbr600 2002 Engine wont idle/run when warm Reply with quote

Bike was running perfectly, I stopped on way to work after 10 minutes, and wont restart. If I hold throttle wide open she was running - bogged down at first then revving freely.

Its almost like water in tank, but thats unlikely as it hasnt rained since I last had fully empty tank. Could be air filter, likely fork oil has clogged things up.

Any ideas
Thanks
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 19 Mar 2020    Post subject: Re: Cbr600 2002 Engine wont idle/run when warm Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Bike was running perfectly, I stopped on way to work after 10 minutes, and wont restart. If I hold throttle wide open she was running - bogged down at first then revving freely.

Its almost like water in tank, but thats unlikely as it hasnt rained since I last had fully empty tank. Could be air filter, likely fork oil has clogged things up.

Any ideas
Thanks


Valve clearences.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 13:19 - 19 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triangulate the suggestions you get here with those you might get @ https://cbrforum.com/forum/cbr-600-f4i-101/ if you haven't asked there already. Even now those forums/threads still receive regular postings.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 19 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small update, its now happening from cold, wont run at all. Earlier it did appear better before the fast idle wax unit had warmed up.
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steve the grease
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 19 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could just be a blocked main jet , caused by a small lump of corrosion in the floatbowl , caused by the shite, alcohol and dissolved water contaminated piss that passes for petrol nowadays.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 21 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve the grease wrote:
It could just be a blocked main jet , caused by a small lump of corrosion in the floatbowl , caused by the shite, alcohol and dissolved water contaminated piss that passes for petrol nowadays.


01 onwards is FI.
Any FI flash codes? Might me temperature sensor.

If not, when was fuel filter last changed?
If you spray brake cleaner, easy start etc into the intakes will it run?
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 18:48 - 21 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the air filter off and its black, but supprisingly clean, no oily mess from fork oil.

Had a peek down the intake with throttle open, 1,2,4 look clean, 3 had a vapour mist or some strange light reflection.

Tried with WOT, no filter, and brake cleaner as easy start, no luck. I can see fuel squirting in, and at WOT it was occasionaly firing but not enough to run.

Air, fuel are good. Next I'll get sparks out also I have a suspcion the bank angle sensor may be fucking with me, wouldnt be the first time.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 17 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent another few hours looking at this. Plugs replaced -a masive pita. Bank angle sensor is not the problem as that cuts the fuel pump, and the fuel pump can be heard running.

Took a plug stick out, earthed on engine.it was in bright sunlight, spark was yellow. No idea if normal... It sparks..

I can see fuel squirting in.

The TB's have two small air holes, One appears to be idle and the other for the cold start. With the throttle closed, fluid was spraying out, but that may be I had sprayed brake cleaner in them.

She will occasionally fire for half a second, sounds like only 2 cylinders and 500rpm.

Any ideas?

https://i.postimg.cc/MHb26hkH/IMG-20200517-163915.jpg
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 17 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve clearances.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 17 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

That does explain it, and it has been about 90k miles since checked. Am I correct thinking that if they have got so tight that the valves stay open, it will have worn too much and be scrap anyway?

Its a very fiddly task that I did not want to risk doing myself, and a replacement engine is cheaper than paying for it. If its already broken there is no risk I might open her up Laughing
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droog
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 17 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
That does explain it, and it has been about 90k miles since checked. Am I correct thinking that if they have got so tight that the valves stay open, it will have worn too much and be scrap anyway?

Its a very fiddly task that I did not want to risk doing myself, and a replacement engine is cheaper than paying for it. If its already broken there is no risk I might open her up Laughing


I've got a similar situation with my CBR - bike started stalling - I did a clearance check and all the valves are way too tight - I did a compression check - making 50% below what it should be on cylinder 2 - I'm thinking the valves have started eating their way into the head so a shim change is probably not sufficient to restore compression - so I'm taking the head off, remove the valves and springs etc and am taking the head to a machine shop to get the seats cut back/replaced.

It's all my fault - I should have checked the clearances a few thousand miles back and re-shimmed before it ever got to this point.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
That does explain it, and it has been about 90k miles since checked. Am I correct thinking that if they have got so tight that the valves stay open, it will have worn too much and be scrap anyway?

Its a very fiddly task that I did not want to risk doing myself, and a replacement engine is cheaper than paying for it. If its already broken there is no risk I might open her up Laughing


You're 70% there with the airbox off, remove throttle bodies, cam cover and you'll at least be able to measure the clearances. Normally it's the exhaust valves that wear. If there's no clearance at all then you might have to get the seats done.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
That does explain it, and it has been about 90k miles since checked. Am I correct thinking that if they have got so tight that the valves stay open, it will have worn too much and be scrap anyway?

Its a very fiddly task that I did not want to risk doing myself, and a replacement engine is cheaper than paying for it. If its already broken there is no risk I might open her up Laughing


It shouldn't be scrap.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
That does explain it, and it has been about 90k miles since checked. Am I correct thinking that if they have got so tight that the valves stay open, it will have worn too much and be scrap anyway?

Its a very fiddly task that I did not want to risk doing myself, and a replacement engine is cheaper than paying for it. If its already broken there is no risk I might open her up Laughing


I just read this and sort of said 'er what' in my head as its a bit confusing. Previously you have tried to tell me I know nothing and suggested I knew so little I was a service manager in Kwik-fit, that you knew better than me and could rebuild engines yet as we can see here by your reluctance you struggle to do valves adjustments. Don't pretend you know more than you do, to not know isn't a problem, to lie and big yourself up just makes you look like a dick.

So back to the bike. As Nobby says and you tried to ignore the first time, valve clearances are the obvious thing to look at. When a bike runs and starts fine when cold but won't restart when hot it strongly suggests the valve clearances are too small, that when the head gets hot and expands it closes up the clearances so this makes sense.
As your bike now doesn't start when cold I would be looking at running a quick compression test as well. Problem with a compression test is if the valves have closed up it could give a false reading.

Do you use quality oil and change it regularly?

If the clearances have closed up it probably won't be a problem as your bike uses shim under bucket adjustment and the shims can go in size from 1.20mm to 2.90mm which is a fair range of adjustment, if the clearances close up you go smaller and Manufacturers tend to build engines with as large a shim as possible to start with.
You could possibly go even smaller if you were willing to lathe down the valve retainer, as long as the shim is still held it shouldn't be a problem due to the bucket on top.
At worst you can fit new valve seats to get the clearances back if the valves have seriously receded into the head but this is uncommon with modern bikes, the seats are so hard you can't even use grinding pasts to redress them.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Droog wrote:
I've got a similar situation with my CBR - bike started stalling - I did a clearance check and all the valves are way too tight - I did a compression check - making 50% below what it should be on cylinder 2 - I'm thinking the valves have started eating their way into the head so a shim change is probably not sufficient to restore compression - so I'm taking the head off, remove the valves and springs etc and am taking the head to a machine shop to get the seats cut back/replaced.

It's all my fault - I should have checked the clearances a few thousand miles back and re-shimmed before it ever got to this point.


Start your own thread please.
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droog
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:


Start your own thread please.


Yes you're right - sorry. Embarassed
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it flash an error code such as 19 when it doesn't start?

You will have to crank it for more than 10 seconds for it to flash an error code.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were you not a service manager at kwick fit? I remember that being your words, not mine.
I do not struggle with valve adjustments I just choose not to do them. I have rebuilt before, long time ago now, not something I enjoyed and not really worth the effort unless the engine is special, a common bike engine is not.

However I am interested to measure the wear, I may do the shims as I have time at the moment. The amount of dirt and extremely limited space will be an unpleasant challenge.
Yes I use quality oil. No the last change was at 13k as I did not keep track of it. No she does not flash other than when I had sensors disconnected to force the basic fuel map.


Droog wrote:
so I'm taking the head off, remove the valves and springs etc and am taking the head to a machine shop to get the seats cut back/replaced.

It's all my fault - I should have checked the clearances a few thousand miles back and re-shimmed before it ever got to this point.


Consider if its worth the cost as there are many low milage engines and machining is not cheap, and then you have to trust them to do it properly, easier to swap engine. Thanks for your post.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will need a low range torque wrench for this. Any recommendations? My old one got lost when I moved.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Were you not a service manager at kwick fit? I remember that being your words, not mine.
I do not struggle with valve adjustments I just choose not to do them. I have rebuilt before, long time ago now, not something I enjoyed and not really worth the effort unless the engine is special, a common bike engine is not.

However I am interested to measure the wear, I may do the shims as I have time at the moment. The amount of dirt and extremely limited space will be an unpleasant challenge.
Yes I use quality oil. No the last change was at 13k as I did not keep track of it. No she does not flash other than when I had sensors disconnected to force the basic fuel map.




I did my 5 valve per cylinder FZ in a parking space opposite my house. It's not difficult.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Droog wrote:


I've got a similar situation with my CBR - bike started stalling - I did a clearance check and all the valves are way too tight - I did a compression check - making 50% below what it should be on cylinder 2 - I'm thinking the valves have started eating their way into the head so a shim change is probably not sufficient to restore compression - so I'm taking the head off, remove the valves and springs etc and am taking the head to a machine shop to get the seats cut back/replaced.

It's all my fault - I should have checked the clearances a few thousand miles back and re-shimmed before it ever got to this point.


The loss of compression is proibably because of the lack of clearences, your valves are sticking slightly open when they should be closed.
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droog
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
I will need a low range torque wrench for this. Any recommendations? My old one got lost when I moved.


I bought a Norbar TTi20 torque wrench for this job - it's a decent quality torque wrench with good reviews and comes with a calibration certificate - the range is 1 to 20 Nm - I think the cam holder bolts on the CBR are 12 Nm - in the middle of this wrenches range so it's ideal for this job.

Quote:
Consider if its worth the cost as there are many low milage engines and machining is not cheap, and then you have to trust them to do it properly, easier to swap engine. Thanks for your post.


Yes - that makes a lot of sense.


Last edited by droog on 21:32 - 18 May 2020; edited 1 time in total
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droog
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 18 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:


The loss of compression is proibably because of the lack of clearences, your valves are sticking slightly open when they should be closed.


Thanks Nobby - hoping I can get away with just a reshim and not have to sort the head out - cheers.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 19 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Were you not a service manager at kwik fit? I remember that being your words, not mine.


It's funny how the mind changes things over time. I didn't say I was a service manager at Kwick-fit you did. You also said it in a derisory fashion which in light of you not being able to do valve clearances or change oil is quite amusing.

Have a read back through this to remind yourself.

Binge was an area manager of a national chain but I can understand the confusion. Binge and sickpup are after all very close and sound alike. I couldn't do it, dealing with customers who always know better than the mechanics and management who are always looking at the bottom line.

kramdra wrote:
I do not struggle with valve adjustments I just choose not to do them.


That'll pretty much be the definition of reluctance then.

kramdra wrote:
I have rebuilt before, long time ago now, not something I enjoyed and not really worth the effort unless the engine is special, a common bike engine is not.


Well that depends on what the problem is. Having a head skimmed used to cost me £40. Valves or seats redressed £3.50 per item so not that expensive.

kramdra wrote:
However I am interested to measure the wear, I may do the shims as I have time at the moment. The amount of dirt and extremely limited space will be an unpleasant challenge.


That's normal, not a challenge.

kramdra wrote:
Yes I use quality oil. No the last change was at 13k as I did not keep track of it.


So that was at least 77k ago., more than likely a lot more so no you don't use good quality oil during oil changes, you top up contaminated oil.

kramdra wrote:
No she does not flash other than when I had sensors disconnected to force the basic fuel map.


That would at best force the bike into a restricted limp mode not force a basic fuel map.

Now back to your bike.

There are so many possible points of failure on your bike due to the lack of servicing that its hard to point at anything in particular.
I would still follow Nobby's advice and check the clearances and then a compression test but the chances are the engine has so much internal wear that you might as well replace it before you have another failure and learn how to do general servicing.
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