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Socialism is dead, long live Socialism!

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Socialism is dead, long live Socialism! Reply with quote

Let's start with the premise that 20th Century Socialism is dead, the high ideals buried under a hundred million bodies. Let's get some fresh ideas...

I keep hearing murmurings around "Universal Income" which I can't see working, I don't see how it isn't just a long term recipe for rampant inflation (someone might correct me on this, if you're of a mind to.)
Instead I wonder whether it might be better to re-nationalise certain essential things based on an NHS-style, centrally funded system.

Things like water & sewage. Why this is privately owned when you have no choice of provider? Electricity? Fake private: it all comes from the National Grid, gas is the similar. Telecoms? This is where Labour went a bit mad: there is quite a lot of choice in this segment and best left private although I could see a basic, fixed telephone line being a universal service.

So what I would propose is all power, heating and water to "free" (or rather, centrally managed for the country) for all households and small businesses. Everyone would be allocated a standard amount of resources per year - enough to live, but not extravagant - and only pay if going over that.

On the flip side they'll be machine gun nests just outside the Channel Tunnel and all coast guard and light navel ships will have .50 cals to repel the freeloaders from the borders Wink
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong forum mate. You'll need to don your nosepeg and your tinfoil Fedora and venture into Politics and Current Affairs.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:20 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about the services. Power, water, rail, Gas ar all a joke as privatised industries so renationalise them.

Universal income is one of those things that sounds good, involves good ideals (no stigma attached) and could lift large amounts of people out of poverty. The saving in beaurocracy with no need to manage pensions, housing allowance, DHS etc.

The other side is the cost, the implementation and the safety net (or lack) and the fact mpd would be proved right about people heading for the land of milk and honey, unbelievable illegal immigration and asylum seekers.

In my view it would only work if that was it. You got that and nothing else. No further safety nets. No housing allowance, no child allowance. No extra bureaucracy to support you when you were broke because you have just bought a 65" 4k TV and have no money for rent and food. Won't happen though, we don't like seeing beggars at the best of times.

So yes, I agree with you. Whether the populous would agree with the tax burden of course, bearing in mind it's going to have to rise after this virus debacle anyway is moot.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Wrong forum mate. You'll need to don your nosepeg and your tinfoil Fedora and venture into Politics and Current Affairs.


Perhaps it can be moved?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Wrong forum mate. You'll need to don your nosepeg and your tinfoil Fedora and venture into Politics and Current Affairs.


Perhaps it can be moved?


I don't mind, I kinda felt it wasn't current events more pipe dream stuff.

With regards to stigma, I think we see that with food vouchers and the like and ppl dislike such things, universal basic income is barely any better. If you give people money you also give them the opportunity to fuck things up. "Free" power and the like well, you don't really have any real choice in the matter: the "capitalist free-market" is illusionary, IMHO.

People will still starve to death through poor choices but OAPs choosing between either heating and food says something's gone wrong.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Wrong forum mate. You'll need to don your nosepeg and your tinfoil Fedora and venture into Politics and Current Affairs.


Perhaps it can be moved?


Ste for Mod.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 14 Apr 2020    Post subject: Re: Socialism is dead, long live Socialism! Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Let's start with the premise that 20th Century Socialism is dead, the high ideals buried under a hundred million bodies. Let's get some fresh ideas...

Oh, bugger. Is there a way to prevent a thread actuallyt being displayed?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 02:52 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Re: Socialism is dead, long live Socialism! Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
Let's start with the premise that 20th Century Socialism is dead, the high ideals buried under a hundred million bodies. Let's get some fresh ideas...

Oh, bugger. Is there a way to prevent a thread actuallyt being displayed?


I could edit the thread title to "I make up bollox when I'm bored at work" if that would help?
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 03:33 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on, I get my water from my well, my shit goes in my septic and my leccy comes from a co-op, what's in this for me?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nationalised water, electric and gas is obvious. I was doing some skype beers with a couple of mates last week, one French and the other Dutch. The French guy found it hilarious that a giant chunk of UK energy bills go to EDF, which is a state owned French company. The Dutch guy was amazed that the UK government would ever allow such a thing. I explained that it was partly due to EU rules which means any company must be given equal opportunity to tender for contracts. However it doesn't get over the fact that the UK government could have set up its own company and tendered too, with the obvious cost effectiveness that nationalised power entails.

Generally my opinion is that social necessities should be nationalised. Rail, power, water, gas, maybe telecoms, probably all public transport. Also health, police, education, etc. These are all things that keep a nation operating smoothly, and keep the people civilised and prosperous (imagine a country without any of those things being provided to the people, or provided only to the highest bidder - more like the wild west!), so there shouldn't be a "fuck you, you can't have it" attitude to anyone, because that only makes the nation poorer in the long run.

Free markets should exist for commodities and luxuries that are not required for staying alive, i.e. playstations, snazzy sofas, mobile phones, cars.... etc.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Free markets should exist for commodities and luxuries that are not required for staying alive, i.e. playstations, snazzy sofas, mobile phones, cars.... etc.


You would nationalise food then? Tescos, Asda and the like because they are more important for staying alive than trains.

It's a total minefield. If we did it we would have to make sure the complacency and strike attitudes from the 80's never came back.

Look at the NHS, it's inefficient, too much bureaucracy and everytime a government tries to streamline it or cut costs there are people howling like rabid dogs without even looking at what has been suggested.

Of course the trains being private is a joke when you have Railtrack still in the public sector and monopolies being private is just stupid.

So free broadband for everyone. Universal income, tax the rich till they squeal. Nationalise trains and energy.

Fcuk me, I've turned Labour. Shocked Diane for PM.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


You would nationalise food then?


Laughing Fair point. Food is so abundant that we have choice, it's a commodity for most. For those who don't have the luxury of food choice, I suppose the universal basic income thing might come into play. Or food banks? Thinking Universal Basic Food Bank for those who have demonstrably got nothing?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oscar Wilde wrote:
The only thing I cannot resist is temptation.


If we take all the basics and provide them universally to everyone rather than giving money away then you take away the opportunity for muppets to spunk all their money on heroin or hookers or whatever it is those people do Laughing

The noble thing might be to think this actually dehumanises people but with the fiasco of Universal Credit came the evidence that budgeting for a month is beyond some and "getting people prepared for a monthly salary" may I say, a form of state sanctioned cruelty.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:

The noble thing might be to think this actually dehumanises people but with the fiasco of Universal Credit came the evidence that budgeting for a month is beyond some and "getting people prepared for a monthly salary" may I say, a form of state sanctioned cruelty.


Every other F*ker in the world has to deal with that, so why not the poorest too?

I watched a woman on TV saying that she couldn't afford to feed her kids on Universal credit, but had 2x 24 packs of Stella in her trolley and both mom and dad were smoking cigarettes like they are going out of fashion. The particular TV programme did their best to make the family look sympathetic, but when you can't budget? *shrug* It should be a skill taught at school.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I struggle to see how anyone who isn't working can afford to smoke nowadays.

What is it, £10 a packet, so 20 a day ends up at £300 a month. I couldn't afford to smoke on my pension.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 20:41 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

They still buy them from a man with a carrier bag, in the pub, down the market, of course.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
They still buy them from a man with a carrier bag, in the pub, down the market, of course.


I thought that was dirty DVD's.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:


I watched a woman on TV saying that she couldn't afford to feed her kids on Universal credit, but had 2x 24 packs of Stella in her trolley and both mom and dad were smoking cigarettes like they are going out of fashion. The particular TV programme did their best to make the family look sympathetic, but when you can't budget? *shrug* It should be a skill taught at school.


That's where the yanks have got it sorted. Florida calls it's program SNAP, supplemental nutritional assistance program, for those living on the bread line. They set you up with a card that they credit regularly but you can only use it in approved outlets for approved goods, no fags, no booze, no Maccy D's. etc.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 15 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:
MarJay wrote:


I watched a woman on TV saying that she couldn't afford to feed her kids on Universal credit, but had 2x 24 packs of Stella in her trolley and both mom and dad were smoking cigarettes like they are going out of fashion. The particular TV programme did their best to make the family look sympathetic, but when you can't budget? *shrug* It should be a skill taught at school.


That's where the yanks have got it sorted. Florida calls it's program SNAP, supplemental nutritional assistance program, for those living on the bread line. They set you up with a card that they credit regularly but you can only use it in approved outlets for approved goods, no fags, no booze, no Maccy D's. etc.


The do gooders wouldn't stand for that over here. It's demeaning. Making an under culture etc. People have the right to spend money on booze, fags and drugs.

Personally I don't see why not when it's meant to be a safety net not a lifestyle but it won't happen here.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:28 - 16 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

- wrote:

One comment was “its my wages, i’ll spend it on what I want.” Rolling Eyes


Mate of mine used to say that about his dole money when he was 18, 19, 20, 21... can't remember how long he abused it for.

Massive Tory supporter now.

Same goes for my gran. I spent a while not working because I had enough savings to focus on the A-levels I was doing. She kept telling me to sign on to the dole because it was "your right as a British citizen", and "you should take what you can get".

Also a massive Tory supporter.

Funny that.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 16 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks might be interested in looking at this Labour groups ideas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Labour
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 16 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Folks might be interested in looking at this Labour groups ideas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Labour


Most of that makes very good sense but the problem is, whatever party, the bits that make good sense come with a lot that is utterly stupid or implausible.

The amount of times that you hear people saying Labour is too far left or Tory is too far right you would think a centrist party would clear up in an election. It hasn't happened for about 100 years though, basically since the Labour party came into being and took most of it's vote. Mind you, it hasn't made the best choice in leaders has it.

To get back to mentalboys statement about the Florida way of a card with credit on it only being valid in certain shops, I cannot see the problem having that. It would be easy to make certain cards valid everywhere, long term disability, OAP and that sort of thing and other only valid in food and energy outlets for those on out of work benefits and surely that is an acceptable condition for having a social security system.

The thing now though is how many people are going to be out of work after this virus shite is over. Money is going to be tight. Taxes will be going up I've no doubt to pay for the lock down protections and there will be less tax from incomes. I reckon we will see people using there cars less as well so less fuel revenue. Once you get in a habit of not using it you see how you didn't need it in the first place.

I reckon it's going to be utter pants for a long time whatever your politics.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 16 Apr 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
Folks might be interested in looking at this Labour groups ideas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Labour


Checking all the points for me: critical of New Labour and the centralised bureaucracy of the EU, dissemination of power back to communities... the only flaw I see is the near total reform of local government from parish to county required.
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