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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 01:21 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: We are not alone... Reply with quote

The videos are "official."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52457805

Aliens?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 09:22 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Re: We are not alone... Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
The videos are "official."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52457805

Aliens?


Nah. It'll have a rational explanation. Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 09:37 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I'd say to that is, do we know about everything in the universe?
Even aliens could be rational.
Why would we spend so much time looking for life out there if we thought it was irrational to expect there to be any?
Open mind here.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thatís quite profound Mr Chicken Thinking Thumbs Up
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 11:41 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't tell Donk aliens are here on earth. He will be campaigning to have them deported.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fisty wrote:
Don't tell Donk aliens are here on earth. He will be campaigning to have them deported.


Soz, Fisty. Even if you get the ritual donking you dont meet the necessary specifications to be a member of the SMS.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:40 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

There probably is life out there. Say there is only one earthlike planet per star system.

There are an estimated 10^11 stars in our galaxy alone (that's a 1 with 11 zero's after it).

There are an estimated 10^12 galaxies in the universe, so 10^23 planets.

Chances of there being life on many of them is therefore very good.

The problem is the vast distance between us and them. Even our closest star system (alpha centuri) is over 4 light years away. It would take us 75,000 years to reach it.

That's not to say that faster than light travel is impossible. But if a species has mastered it they would be extremely intelligent. Far more intelligent than just to appear to some individuals and rotate around a bit.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:


That's not to say that faster than light travel is impossible. But if a species has mastered it they would be extremely intelligent. Far more intelligent than just to appear to some individuals and rotate around a bit.


According to USN pilots, more than one, they do far more than rotate around a bit. You'd think that such individuals would be pretty intelligent, not to say very objective in their reports. So is the USN pulling a prank? Could be I suppose, but there is one interview with one pilot I've seen that doesn't suggest that. Or maybe he'd be brilliant at poker Thinking

Nevertheless, who knows what remains hidden from us in physics. Are we to say we have it fully understood? That's not a bet I'd be prepared to lay down. But then, nor would I bet that we have ever been visited by aliens. This fence is pretty comfortable Laughing ...enough to sit and speculate a while.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
The only thing I'd say to that is, do we know about everything in the universe?
Even aliens could be rational.
Why would we spend so much time looking for life out there if we thought it was irrational to expect there to be any?
Open mind here.


Alien life is a rational assumption. However, from that to assuming an advanced technological civilisation with the patience to travel for potentially hundreds of years just to have a quick look then leave is quite another. Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:44 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Alien life is a rational assumption. However, from that to assuming an advanced technological civilisation with the patience to travel for potentially hundreds of years just to have a quick look then leave is quite another. Wink


So we do have physics nailed then?

Or maybe hundreds of years, perhaps even thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years, is the blink of an eye to some alien species Wink Or maybe some species out there has an ability to suspend animation for vast lengths of time. You can take bacterial samples from deep ice cores and reanimate them, no? Who's to say it isn't possible for it to work on larger scales for a species completely biologically different to us? Do we know that life has to be based on the same principles as our own?

But what's to say they took a quick look and left? Shocked

There is another possibility; namely, that some nation (likely the US if any) has far more advanced tech. than they're letting on.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aliens need to mind their business and go back where they came from Laughing

I'm very fond of MiB, Star Wars, Dr Who and assorted other alien or sci fi stuff, and if the universe is really THAT big then yea it would be conceited of us to think we are the only thing in it.

But really ... ?
Ain't nobody got time for that.
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I barely bother to speak to my neighbours, how the fuck do aliens think I am going to bother finding the time to give them directions back to Vector 24? I'm a busy girl.

As long they don't get all War of the Worlds on our arses, then I am fine with co-existing with them.
God knows there are already plenty of weirdoes that we have to co-exist with already, anyhow.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Alien life is a rational assumption. However, from that to assuming an advanced technological civilisation with the patience to travel for potentially hundreds of years just to have a quick look then leave is quite another. Wink


So we do have physics nailed then?

Or maybe hundreds of years, perhaps even thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years, is the blink of an eye to some alien species Wink

But what's to say they took a quick look and left? Shocked

There is another possibility; namely, that some nation (likely the US if any) has far more advanced tech. than they're letting on.


Every test of special relativity has proved the theory correct so far and there have been a lot of them. The speed of light is the fastest anything in the universe (apart from the universe itself) can travel and even then, the only things that can travel at the speed of light are massless photons. A spacecraft might be able to approach relativistic speeds at significant portion of the speed of light but the energy requirements for that are horrendous. Then there's the small matter of the travelling craft's mass increasing as it approaches the speed of light in turn increasing the energy requirement...

Alcubierre proposed a method for carrying an envelope of the universe and driving that faster than the speed of light (permissible as in the frame of reference, the craft itself would be travelling at sub luminal velocities...) but until we can make strange matter for negative energy and produce the prodigious quantities of energy needed to transport meaningful mass this way (current estimates place the requirement at 3 solar masses and above to transport a few atoms Very Happy ) then that's unlikely.

Then there's also the timing. We've been around for about about 200,000 years in homo sapiens form and we've had space flight (very limited space flight at that...) for around 60 years. The average lifetime of a species is reckoned to be around a million years from evolution to extinction - a very very small window of opportunity and statistically unlikely for two reasonable adjacent civilisations to develop technologically in a concurrent window.

Nah. There will be a rational explanation. Laughing
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:


I couldn't help but click it Sad

Chickenstrip is right. We have nowhere near got Physics licked. 200 years ago they said you couldn't travel faster than 30mph (they believed you'd suffocate).
Islander is right though that General and Special Relativity prohibit travelling at light speed, and these theories are valid. We've proven them using supersonic jets and atomic clocks, and the GPS depends on it for example.
Note that the laws do not prohibit FTL travel, merely crossing the boundary from sub light to super light. FTL particles (called tachyons) would always have to remain FTL. One small problem is that time flows backwards for them.

I'm still trying to work out how to send national lottery number info in the form of tachyons.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

Every test of special relativity has proved the theory correct so far and there have been a lot of them.


But how do we know we have the ability and knowledge to perform the right kind of tests? How do we know our knowledge of relativity is complete? We haven't cracked string theory, or loop quantum gravity, and who knows what kind of ideas we'll be studying in the future. Can you explain dark matter and dark energy for example?

Quote:
Alcubierre proposed a method for carrying an envelope of the universe and driving that faster than the speed of light (permissible as in the frame of reference, the craft itself would be travelling at sub luminal velocities...) but until we can make strange matter for negative energy and produce the prodigious quantities of energy needed to transport meaningful mass this way (current estimates place the requirement at 3 solar masses and above to transport a few atoms Very Happy ) then that's unlikely.


Just so we know what you're talking about here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

To address what I highlighted in bold above, it doesn't need 'us' to come up with the tech. We're talking an alien species solving space travel to come here, not us going to them.
And...you haven't addressed the possibility of the longevity of a member of an alien species, who perhaps could live long enough to traverse vast distances within our current physics knowledge of possibilities.

Quote:
Then there's also the timing. We've been around for about about 200,000 years in homo sapiens form and we've had space flight (very limited space flight at that...) for around 60 years. The average lifetime of a species is reckoned to be around a million years from evolution to extinction - a very very small window of opportunity and statistically unlikely for two reasonable adjacent civilisations to develop technologically in a concurrent window.


The average lifetime of an alien species on the other hand...

What are you thinking about when I say "alien species"? Little green men? Laughing

And who's to say it would have to be an adjacent alien species? Who's to say mankind is the most advanced civilisation in the universe, so what we say goes? Scientists, some of them very well renowned, have been proved wrong before.

How many dimensions are there? 11 at last guess? 14? More? Can they be crossed, one from another? Don't let current scientific knowledge straitjacket you Wink
We could turn out to be the dumbest 'intelligent' species in the universe Laughing

Quote:
Nah. There will be a rational explanation. Laughing


You scientific types are such killjoys Laughing
Sometimes it takes a non-scientific imagination to get you lot really thinking Wink
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it, in an age where you can photograph the surface of the moon to something like mm definition. Where phone cameras are so good and everyone carries one, all the pictures of UFO's, aliens, monsters, ghosts and everything that is open for debate are so crap?
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
....200 years ago they said you couldn't travel faster than 30mph (they believed you'd suffocate)..


They had horses over 200 years ago, they go faster than 30MPH, never heard of anyone suffocating racing their horses, maybe that's why so many people died in battles as they raced towards the enemy. Laughing

Who would believe such a statement, they must've had the MSM even then.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Why is it, in an age where you can photograph the surface of the moon to something like mm definition. Where phone cameras are so good and everyone carries one, all the pictures of UFO's, aliens, monsters, ghosts and everything that is open for debate are so crap?


Have you seen the gun cams when they shoot up some fuzzy-wuzzies? The military's priority isn't on 4K quality!

I doubt very much there'll be a FTL drive in the sort of "travel normal space > lightspeed" way. More likely it'll be dimensional portals like in The Expanse or Stargate.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Why is it, in an age where you can photograph the surface of the moon to something like mm definition. Where phone cameras are so good and everyone carries one, all the pictures of UFO's, ...are so crap?


Their craft give off emissions that downgrade the results Wink Laughing
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://elderprops.com/wp-content/uploads/elderprops-xfiles-i-want-to-belive.jpg

The truth is out there.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fisty wrote:
https://elderprops.com/wp-content/uploads/elderprops-xfiles-i-want-to-belive.jpg

The truth is out there.


Hey mister, can I have my frisbee back? Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
hellkat wrote:


I couldn't help but click it Sad

Chickenstrip is right. We have nowhere near got Physics licked. 200 years ago they said you couldn't travel faster than 30mph (they believed you'd suffocate).
Islander is right though that General and Special Relativity prohibit travelling at light speed, and these theories are valid. We've proven them using supersonic jets and atomic clocks, and the GPS depends on it for example.
Note that the laws do not prohibit FTL travel, merely crossing the boundary from sub light to super light. FTL particles (called tachyons) would always have to remain FTL. One small problem is that time flows backwards for them.

I'm still trying to work out how to send national lottery number info in the form of tachyons.


Tachyons are imaginary particles though a whole lot more imaginary than gravitons. Razz

FTL travel is forbidden within the space time fabric of our universe. To be able to travel faster than light you would either have to step outside of the universe into another. That's assuming the mutliverse theories are right and we could discover a method of doing so. Even then it would be at enormous risk because laws of physics in another universe might not even be compatible with life. Or you could take a bubble of the universe with you - mind you, you'd have to discover and produce sufficient quantities of strange matter to produce the negative energy required. Oh and the energy implications of either are truly horrendous.

C'mon folks, Occams razor. Rational explanation of optical phenomena. Thumbs Up Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


C'mon folks, Occams razor.


People cut themselves with razors Razz

I put it to you that without imagination, our knowledge of science would be much further back than it is now. It begins with observation. But that triggers ideas. You have to come up with something to put to the test. Our scientific knowledge isn't intrinsic to us at birth. Once upon a time, civilisations believed gods were rational explanations for observable phenomena.
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Last edited by chickenstrip on 20:42 - 03 May 2020; edited 1 time in total
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 20:41 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its absolutely right to assume that other forms of existence ("aliens" is so species-ist Laughing ) may have completely different requirements when it comes to multidimensional travel.

They might not NEED the prodigious quantities of energy-producing and combustion that we need. Maybe we just haven't worked out which variety of animal we need to exploit to get super lightspeeds simply by manipulating them correctly.

Perhaps other forms of existence visit earth trans-dimensionally to harvest our cockroaches for the hairs on their legs which produces the correct form of propellant for their vehicles of choice ... but they leave the cockroaches alive to annoy and freak us out, they just maybe boost the cockroaches ugly shields of armour before they go, as some form of barter. I dunno.

I'm completely open to understanding how and where other forms of existence might live, or are evolving, just so long as they don't want to put me to death in a fiery ball of flame.

I personally think that physics might just be a waste of time when looking for them. Sure, it explains "why infinity" and the universe, all that lovely "expanding universe" theory sounds very entertaining and logical.

But that our comprehension of it is so miniscule, means there could quite easily be a completely different (and probably not nearly as complicated to understand) justification for how other forms of existence get to where they are, and where they are going.

We can't really afford to be empirical about it. We have to be open to acceptance of ideas that seem completely unrational to us. Because after all, what do we really fucking know at all.

Chickenygeezer is right: we may well be the DUMBEST cunts in the universe. Everybody is probably laughing and pointing at us and finding more complicated ways to spell their equivalent of "dyslexia" so that we are constantly flummoxed.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:

Every test of special relativity has proved the theory correct so far and there have been a lot of them.


But how do we know we have the ability and knowledge to perform the right kind of tests? How do we know our knowledge of relativity is complete? We haven't cracked string theory, or loop quantum gravity, and who knows what kind of ideas we'll be studying in the future. Can you explain dark matter and dark energy for example?


No, and I'm not a fan of either to be honest. Dark matter might just be down to neutrinos. Dark energy? Well, modified Newtonian dynamics seems more attractive (geddit?) to me. Time will tell.

We know what special relativity postulates, we know how to test aspects of this and we've done it. Every test bears it out.

Remember when people were getting excited about faster than light photons in fibre optic cables a few years ago. First thing I thought was 'hmmm systematic error, go wiggle the connectors". Guess what? Laughing


chickenstrip wrote:
To address what I highlighted in bold above, it doesn't need 'us' to come up with the tech. We're talking an alien species solving space travel to come here, not us going to them.
And...you haven't addressed the possibility of the longevity of a member of an alien species, who perhaps could live long enough to traverse vast distances within our current physics knowledge of possibilities.[


They still face the same problems, speed of light limitations etc. The best proposal would be a so-called "generation starship" (Gotta love Heinlein Smile ). If they put that much energy and effort into traversing the mind blowing distances and survived it, they'd hang around - they'd at least need to refresh their provisions and fuel source before they moved on. If anything did come all that distance, they'd probably be looking for real estate to colonise which, if they were that technologically advanced, would not bode well for us at all.

However, let me put another problem with relativistic velocities to you. Partlcles of interstellar dust and gas (and there are a lot of those) hitting a starship at those velocities would be like detonating a nuclear device against the hull of the ship. Not good.

Unless you want to propose some mystical force field of course... Wink

chickenstrip wrote:
The average lifetime of an alien species on the other hand...

What are you thinking about when I say "alien species"? Little green men? Laughing

And who's to say it would have to be an adjacent alien species? Who's to say mankind is the most advanced civilisation in the universe, so what we say goes? Scientists, some of them very well renowned, have been proved wrong before.

How many dimensions are there? 11 at last guess? 14? More? Can they be crossed, one from another? Don't let current scientific knowledge straitjacket you Wink
We could turn out to be the dumbest 'intelligent' species in the universe Laughing


Well now, there are some very long lived multi-cellular organisms on Earth but they're primitive. Once you get to the level of complexity of something like a human, you're looking at a naturally limited lifecycle. I'm reasonably happy that the same principles will apply to other life whether it's carbon, silicon or boron based.

I'm not thinking of little green men or beings with huge eyes and spindly bodies either Laughing

Who can say how life will evolve elsewhere - other than it has to follow some basic rules to have higher functions. Thumbs Up

Adjacent because of times taken to travel between systems even at relativistic velocities with the advantages they confer (time dilation, distance shortening, etc.).

Extra dimensions? Sure, depending on the system you prefer and which one turns out to be correct. The problem is that in string theory, the additional dimensions are so small as to be unmeasurable and there's nothing to say that the same laws of physics that allow us to live will apply there. Same applies with other universes.

Oh and we could well be the galactic equivalent of Donk. No argument there. Laughing

I love my science fiction - I'm a huge fan of the likes of Niven, Pournelle, Heinlein, Reynolds, Banks et al. I have plenty of imagination but it's tempered with a dose of reality too. Thumbs Up
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:04 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Why is it, in an age where you can photograph the surface of the moon to something like mm definition. Where phone cameras are so good and everyone carries one, all the pictures of UFO's, aliens, monsters, ghosts and everything that is open for debate are so crap?


Not to forget the huge numbers of amateur astronomers with quite sophisticated telescopes that haven't managed to see them either...

Or the huge number of professionals with even more sophisticated equipment and one of the most transparent and open reporting mechanisms out there... Wink
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