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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


C'mon folks, Occams razor.


People cut themselves with razors Razz

I put it to you that without imagination, our knowledge of science would be much further back than it is now. It begins with observation. But that triggers ideas. You have to come up with something to put to the test. Our scientific knowledge isn't intrinsic to us at birth. Once upon a time, civilisations believed gods were rational explanations for observable phenomena.


I agree, but Occams razor turns up trumps time and time again Razz
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Who can say how life will evolve elsewhere - other than it has to follow some basic rules to have higher functions. Thumbs Up


Even this, surely, is under question.
We are only capable of assuming that other existences function in the same way that we do.

We're still basing the concept of other beings and their methodologies for existence, upon our own fairly primitive models.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what Occam's Razor is ...

*takes self penitently off to Google*
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The advancement of scientific knowledge isn't about what we already know. The advancement of science is about pushing the boundaries into the currently unknown.

Do you think that future scientific discoveries will never surprise you? I think most scientists love surprises. Wouldn't science be dull if it didn't have the capacity to surprise us, enthral us with wonder?

How can you be a "fan" or otherwise of something you can't explain? Confused

I'm a bit tired now - tough workout today. I might come back to your post in more detail tomorrow Razz
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
I think its absolutely right to assume that other forms of existence ("aliens" is so species-ist Laughing ) may have completely different requirements when it comes to multidimensional travel.

They might not NEED the prodigious quantities of energy-producing and combustion that we need. Maybe we just haven't worked out which variety of animal we need to exploit to get super lightspeeds simply by manipulating them correctly.

Perhaps other forms of existence visit earth trans-dimensionally to harvest our cockroaches for the hairs on their legs which produces the correct form of propellant for their vehicles of choice ... but they leave the cockroaches alive to annoy and freak us out, they just maybe boost the cockroaches ugly shields of armour before they go, as some form of barter. I dunno.

I'm completely open to understanding how and where other forms of existence might live, or are evolving, just so long as they don't want to put me to death in a fiery ball of flame.

I personally think that physics might just be a waste of time when looking for them. Sure, it explains "why infinity" and the universe, all that lovely "expanding universe" theory sounds very entertaining and logical.

But that our comprehension of it is so miniscule, means there could quite easily be a completely different (and probably not nearly as complicated to understand) justification for how other forms of existence get to where they are, and where they are going.

We can't really afford to be empirical about it. We have to be open to acceptance of ideas that seem completely unrational to us. Because after all, what do we really fucking know at all.

Chickenygeezer is right: we may well be the DUMBEST cunts in the universe. Everybody is probably laughing and pointing at us and finding more complicated ways to spell their equivalent of "dyslexia" so that we are constantly flummoxed.


Lovely idea but unfortunately, the laws of physics are universal. Mr Einstein and lot of others were very very clever dudes and dudettes indeed.

Also, we have to be empirical about it otherwise we'll be trying to create an FTL drive with crystal therapy, reiki and homeopathy... Laughing

Quick! I need to get to Alpha Centauri! Fire up the Hopi ear candles! Align my chakras! Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


I agree, but Occams razor turns up trumps time and time again Razz


Except for that one time when it doesn't Wink Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Mr Einstein and lot of others were very very clever dudes and dudettes indeed.


And still they sometimes got things wrong.

Einstein among others thought that philosophy was essential to his thinking too, helping him with his scientific thought. Ideas! Then test them.
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BigTim
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Why is it, in an age where you can photograph the surface of the moon to something like mm definition. Where phone cameras are so good and everyone carries one, all the pictures of UFO's, aliens, monsters, ghosts and everything that is open for debate are so crap?


i guess its difficult to take a good picture when some alien is probing your bottom?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
The advancement of scientific knowledge isn't about what we already know. The advancement of science is about pushing the boundaries into the currently unknown.

Do you think that future scientific discoveries will never surprise you? I think most scientists love surprises. Wouldn't science be dull if it didn't have the capacity to surprise us, enthral us with wonder?

How can you be a "fan" or otherwise of something you can't explain? Confused

I'm a bit tired now - tough workout today. I might come back to your post in more detail tomorrow Razz


Yes, absolutely. Sometimes they come up with something utterly mindblowing and astonishing and I love that. But... scientific progress is still governed by the scientific method no matter how extraordinary and exciting it is Smile

I'm an amateur astronomer and have been most of my life but it still takes my breath away seeing some of the wonders that are out there Smile

As for being a fan - I assume that's a reference to me liking science fiction? I can be a fan because although I know it's fiction, its an engrossing subject. Smile
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no denying they were/are very clever dudes.
But I still think that insisting upon scientific proof (or indeed simplicity) may cause us to be mistakenly led away from potential truths.

That is where the arguments several of you are making fall down: you are still insisting upon scientific justification and empirical proof. Yes of course we have to have some form of justification because otherwise every crazy in town would be insisting that their theory was right. Oh wait ... they already are.

I'm not talking about wizards or magic, although of course they have their place in the fantastical realm (I'd not want to upset that Mr Snape, he looks like he could be a nasty piece of work).

But we do need to be open to the consideration of other worldliness.
Oh dear, I'm starting to sound like Hetzer's book.

Come on now, chaps: I'm a complete rube and not only have I never done any sort of academic consideration, but I have also not done NEARLY enough acid to take this argument too much further Laughing

But I know we shouldn't necessarily insist upon empirical evidence.
Why should we limit ourselves?
Why should the fantastical not be possible?

Its only fantastical to us because we perceive its limitations within our own sphere of experience.

We just have to prove to ourselves that its worthy of considering Laughing

Thinking Hmmmmmmm Thinking
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Yes, absolutely. Sometimes they come up with something utterly mindblowing and astonishing and I love that. But... scientific progress is still governed by the scientific method no matter how extraordinary and exciting it is Smile


Does the scientific method mean discarding those things that it has had no opportunity to test? Or can ideas be merely postponed until an opportunity or method arises?

Quote:
I'm an amateur astronomer and have been most of my life but it still takes my breath away seeing some of the wonders that are out there Smile


Oh, just an amateur. Am disappoint Sad Laughing

Quote:
As for being a fan - I assume that's a reference to me liking science fiction? I can be a fan because although I know it's fiction, its an engrossing subject. Smile


No, you said you weren't a fan of the idea of dark matter. The scientific community (the professional scientific community Razz ) have not dismissed it though.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

Quick! I need to get to Alpha Centauri! Fire up the Hopi ear candles! Align my chakras! Wink


Oh Jesus, even travel at warpspeed would be too long if we had to be surrounded by the scent of Herself's vagina on the way Rolling Eyes
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigTim wrote:
i guess its difficult to take a good picture when some alien is probing your bottom?


There's always one Laughing
I reckon that Tim's a keeper, he talks our lingo.

Try and stay alive.
BCF expects.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:
Mr Einstein and lot of others were very very clever dudes and dudettes indeed.


And still they sometimes got things wrong.

Einstein among others thought that philosophy was essential to his thinking too, helping him with his scientific thought. Ideas! Then test them.


It helped him with his thought experiments and they were probably his greatest strength.

Of course he made mistakes as well, his biggest were fudging his equations with a cosmological constant because he didn't actually know that the universe was expanding, and rejecting the quantum and indeterminate nature of the universe. He acknowledged the first readily. The irony of that one is that he would have been the first to realise and predict the expanding universe - that could have earned him a third Nobel.

But for all of his human imperfections, his theories were beautiful and all of them have stood the test of time.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
Islander wrote:

Quick! I need to get to Alpha Centauri! Fire up the Hopi ear candles! Align my chakras! Wink


Oh Jesus, even travel at warpspeed would be too long if we had to be surrounded by the scent of Herself's vagina on the way Rolling Eyes


Actually, it sounds like Islander is crumbling to me Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Of course he made mistakes as well, his biggest were fudging his equations with a cosmological constant because he didn't actually know that the universe was expanding


Are you telling me Einstein didn't know what he didn't know? Laughing

What do scientists not know today? Double- Laughing
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panrider_uk
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
There probably is life out there. Say there is only one earthlike planet per star system.

There are an estimated 10^11 stars in our galaxy alone (that's a 1 with 11 zero's after it).

There are an estimated 10^12 galaxies in the universe, so 10^23 planets.

Chances of there being life on many of them is therefore very good.

The problem is the vast distance between us and them. Even our closest star system (alpha centuri) is over 4 light years away. It would take us 75,000 years to reach it.

That's not to say that faster than light travel is impossible. But if a species has mastered it they would be extremely intelligent. Far more intelligent than just to appear to some individuals and rotate around a bit.


Closest star is actually Proxima Centauri - in the Alpha Centauri system
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:43 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:
I'm an amateur astronomer and have been most of my life but it still takes my breath away seeing some of the wonders that are out there Smile


Oh, just an amateur. Am disappoint Sad Laughing


I did consider it as a career until I discovered that professional astronomers never actually look through the huge telescopes they get to play with. Laughing

Islander wrote:
As for being a fan - I assume that's a reference to me liking science fiction? I can be a fan because although I know it's fiction, its an engrossing subject. Smile


chickenstrip wrote:
No, you said you weren't a fan of the idea of dark matter. The scientific community (the professional scientific community Razz ) have not dismissed it though.


Some have. It's by no means a universally accepted theory.

I have an open mind on this but I don't like the whole dark energy thing, it sounds too much like a fudge. Modified Newtonian dynamics appeals to me more. I won't be upset if either or another theory not yet proposed turns out to be the right one though. Smile
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
Islander wrote:

Quick! I need to get to Alpha Centauri! Fire up the Hopi ear candles! Align my chakras! Wink


Oh Jesus, even travel at warpspeed would be too long if we had to be surrounded by the scent of Herself's vagina on the way Rolling Eyes


Ah the Yoni drive. Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Of course he made mistakes as well, his biggest were fudging his equations with a cosmological constant because he didn't actually know that the universe was expanding


Are you telling me Einstein didn't know what he didn't know? Laughing

What do scientists not know today? Double- Laughing


He was an early Donald Rumsfeld in that respect. Laughing

Of course there are unknown unknowns. Theoretical Ppysics is somewhat logjammed at the moment - someone will break it though and hopefully with something astonishing. Thumbs Up
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doggone
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been postulated UFOs could be time travellers from the distant future, under strict instruction not to interfere (apart from the occasional anal probe obviously).
It might be more feasible to time travel than exceed light speed to cross galaxies.

The stereotypical big eyed greys might be what we evolve into, or one of the things we evolve into.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

Are you telling me Einstein didn't know what he didn't know? Laughing


See, THIS IS WHAT I MEAN!
He could have been leading us up the incorrect garden path all this time.
Silly old duffer.

We could have been prancing off to A.Centauri via express dandelion clock by now, if it weren't for that constipated old twazzock deciding it had to be done this way.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
It has been postulated UFOs could be time travellers from the distant future, under strict instruction not to interfere (apart from the occasional anal probe obviously).


Unfortunately, that's going a bit far with the speculation even for me Laughing
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can barely see straight to type. Too much screen time today has caused my optical sensors to be a bit maladjusted this evening.

I shall return, possibly not til Tuesday, as i have to go actually into the actual office again tomorrow, but on Tuesday I am "working from home" again, so MAY have more time to contemplate these infuriatingly restrictive notions.
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