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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:


Believing aliens know of us or are remotely interested in who's going to win "I'm a Celebrity..." is at best delusional.


I don't believe any intelligent life is remotely interested in I'm a Celeb.

Quote:
and... the Octopus Shocked


Oh, you just had to go and mention that one, didn't you? Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Believing in the existence of aliens is fine, unproblematic, logical in fact.

Believing aliens know of us or are remotely interested in who's going to win "I'm a Celebrity..." is at best delusional. The same level of delusion as believing in the Bible*

Regarding what they look like, as far as we know there are only two forms of intelligent life on Earth. Vertebrate-based like us, chimps, elephants, dolphins, birds... all with a common reptilian ancestor and... the Octopus Shocked Safe bet other life out there will look nothing like us.

*Joey Biscuits always start their salvos with "In the Bible it tells us..."


I certainly believe that there's a statistical likelihood of the existence of life outside of our solar system whether it exists as simple organisms or evolved intelligence as we understand it is a whole new question.

It's interesting that the conspiracy theorists believe in a community of super intelligent and advanced lifeforms from stars in the open cluster we know as the Pleiades or M45. Especially as the estimated maximum age of the stars in that very young cluster is 150 million years and it took more than 3.5 billion years for life on Earth to evolve this far. Laughing

By the way, there's evidence to support intelligence in cephalopods generally not just octopuses Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
octopuses Smile


Ok, I need this settled once and for all - octopi?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:
octopuses Smile


Ok, I need this settled once and for all - octopi?


Strictly speaking it should be octopodes but octopuses is the common usage.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

Ok, I need this settled once and for all - octopi?


Strictly speaking it should be octopodes but octopuses is the common usage.


Pfft. Us intellectuals don't care for you commoners Folded arms Laughing

It's quite interesting actually:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plurals-of-octopus-octopi-octopuses-octopodes
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
I don't believe any intelligent life is remotely interested in I'm a Celeb.


My other half is a member of Mensa. Lockdown does funny things to a person. She now stares into the middle distance and watches I'm a Celeb.

That said, she's watched neighbours her entire life. Still does...

https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/neighboursx.png
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Strictly speaking it should be octopodes but octopuses is the common usage.


Pfft. Us intellectuals don't care for you commoners Folded arms Laughing

It's quite interesting actually:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plurals-of-octopus-octopi-octopuses-octopodes


It is Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
I don't believe any intelligent life is remotely interested in I'm a Celeb.


My other half is a member of Mensa. Lockdown does funny things to a person. She now stares into the middle distance and watches I'm a Celeb.


I knew these lockdowns were far worse than the disease!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:07 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


It's interesting that the conspiracy theorists believe in a community of super intelligent and advanced lifeforms from stars in the open cluster we know as the Pleiades or M45.


That's near Rugby isn't it? Thinking
Not sure there're super intelligent and advanced life forms there...
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


It's interesting that the conspiracy theorists believe in a community of super intelligent and advanced lifeforms from stars in the open cluster we know as the Pleiades or M45.


That's near Rugby isn't it? Thinking
Not sure there're super intelligent and advanced life forms there...


Apparently there's a wind farm there that they want to plug in to. Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 26 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, it all starts to make sense now Smile
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 02:54 - 27 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
Safe to bet to say other life out there will look nothing like us.

Oh I don't know, I quite liked a Star Trek idea that the universe had been seeded with common-ancestry humanoids. Whilst some of them had pointy ears and others had furrowed foreheads we were all basically cousins sharing the same basic form. They're the ones piloting Rebel's windowed spaceships to our wind farm charging points. Very Happy Then there are the worms.


Cute but I think the Octopus sorta proves that's not the case. Personally I believe there's a certain inevitability to life but purely "ends justify the means" as in the only thing special about humans is our brain-to-body mass ratio not that we have arms, legs, eyes etc. Mechanically we're piss poor at everything. Dexterity? My favourite Cephalopod would laugh at our fumblings.

"Ha! But we've gone to the Moon!"

Only a question of time. A million years after we've been wiped out by Covid-84 something will crawl out of the sea but instead of dragging its bloated body up the beach with stumpy legs and wheezing through proto-lungs it'll be piloting an 8-legged fusion-powered exo-skeleton Very Happy
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 27 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


It's interesting that the conspiracy theorists believe in a community of super intelligent and advanced lifeforms from stars in the open cluster we know as the Pleiades or M45.


That's near Rugby isn't it? Thinking
Not sure there're super intelligent and advanced life forms there...


Being from Rugby, I can confirm the M45 is near Rugby, as are the M1, and M6.

To me, zero contact with extra-terrestrial life (note that I am completely disregarding all conspiracy theories as bull shit) just suggests to me that FTL (Faster than Light) travel is indeed impossible.

I've mentioned before the sheer scale of things. Certainly visiting planets in our solar system is possible within a life time (although there will be little or no life to see), to take the next step to Proxima centauri is not a step, nor a giant leap, but something much bigger.

If the earth and the Sun were just 1 metre apart, on that scale, proxima would be something like the distance from London to Oxford. It would take our fastest rockets 75,000 years to reach.

The solution obviously would be faster travel, but to even get near c requires immense force, tending to infinite as one become infinitesimally close to c. Also time starts doing very strange things at these extremes.

The lack of contact suggests that, like us, other life has not found away of dealing with this impossibility.

Note that the laws of Physics do not prohibit faster than light travel, providing that said entity is always travelling faster than light. It is the physical crossing of the barrier which is the impossibility. Such particles (tachyons) move backwards in time however, and have so far not been detected.

If I find some I will use them to send the lottery numbers to last week.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 27 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:


Note that the laws of Physics do not prohibit faster than light travel, providing that said entity is always travelling faster than light. It is the physical crossing of the barrier which is the impossibility. Such particles (tachyons) move backwards in time however, and have so far not been detected.

If I find some I will use them to send the lottery numbers to last week.


The laws of relativity do indeed prohibit FTL travel in this universe. They also prevent an object with mass achieving the speed of light. Only particles with zero rest mass (photons) can travel at c. There is one further exception (although it really isn't an exception if you think about it) and that is the universe itself.

The reason for this is that as an object with any rest mass approaches a significant proportion of c, its energy and hence its mass increase towards infinity. The energy required is more than the energy available in the universe.

There is one way that has been proposed that could be successful as an FTL system and that is the Alcubierre drive which works by using negative energy to pinch off an envelope of the universe and using the second exception above to exceed c. There are two massive problems with this, one is the finding or creation of the exotic matter needed to create the negative energy field and the standard energy that would be required if it were possible. The second is the horribly energetic infinitely blue shifted radiation front that would be present in front of the ship during the deceleration phase of the drive approaching the destination. This would wreak destruction on the destination system.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Trek transporter transformed 'solid' mass into photons and projected the photons to a target area where they were transformed back into thier former solid state.
Limitation is the number of white disks on the transporter deck.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
Star Trek transporter transformed 'solid' mass into photons and projected the photons to a target area where they were transformed back into thier former solid state.
Limitation is the number of white disks on the transporter deck.


Laughing Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
Star Trek transporter transformed 'solid' mass into photons and projected the photons to a target area where they were transformed back into thier former solid state.
Limitation is the number of white disks on the transporter deck.


Indeed, if we'd asked Gene Roddenberry before he died, we could have had this speed of light travel problem all sewn up.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
bhinso wrote:


Note that the laws of Physics do not prohibit faster than light travel, providing that said entity is always travelling faster than light. It is the physical crossing of the barrier which is the impossibility. Such particles (tachyons) move backwards in time however, and have so far not been detected.

If I find some I will use them to send the lottery numbers to last week.


The laws of relativity do indeed prohibit FTL travel in this universe. They also prevent an object with mass achieving the speed of light. Only particles with zero rest mass (photons) can travel at c. There is one further exception (although it really isn't an exception if you think about it) and that is the universe itself.

The reason for this is that as an object with any rest mass approaches a significant proportion of c, its energy and hence its mass increase towards infinity. The energy required is more than the energy available in the universe.

There is one way that has been proposed that could be successful as an FTL system and that is the Alcubierre drive which works by using negative energy to pinch off an envelope of the universe and using the second exception above to exceed c. There are two massive problems with this, one is the finding or creation of the exotic matter needed to create the negative energy field and the standard energy that would be required if it were possible. The second is the horribly energetic infinitely blue shifted radiation front that would be present in front of the ship during the deceleration phase of the drive approaching the destination. This would wreak destruction on the destination system.


we all know bad things happen when you try to travel faster than light

https://fastly.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/styles/1140x640_hero/public/2019/10/event-horizon.jpg?offset-x=0&offset-y=0
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doggone
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PostPosted: 00:18 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wormhole concept is probably more realistic than going faster than light in the conventional sense.
Bending space and time is established theory.

https://cdn.britannica.com/s:800x450,c:crop/90/185390-138-AA52375F/Proof-equation-Albert-Einstein-mc.jpg
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 01:55 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about Black Holes earlier...

If gravity is a product of time passing at a different speed for your feet relative to your head and such time deviation* is a product of mass warping space-time then a singularity isn't a hole to fall into that removes you from space as much as some sort of cosmic molasses that removes you from time. I suppose one could argue that if space-time is a unified thing than removing something from space (i.e. the 3 physical dimensions) is effectively the same as removing it from time (the 4th dimension) and visa versa Thinking

I find the concept of Hawking Radiation (that Black Holes can, in a way, evaporate) simple to grasp in principle but something tells me that quantum effects at the event horizon are far to convenient to be a thing. But hey, what do I know Wink

Regarding FTL I think the best bet is to keep on plodding on with the LHC and really get to the bottom of how things work. I would imagine somehow temporarily shifting mass into a higher dimension might allow easier sub-light speeds.

The alternative is something like Altered Carbon where one dispenses with as much physical travel as possible.

*time dilation doesn't sound right
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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:05 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
I was thinking about Black Holes earlier...

If gravity is a product of time passing at a different speed for your feet relative to your head and such time deviation* is a product of mass warping space-time then a singularity isn't a hole to fall into that removes you from space as much as some sort of cosmic molasses that removes you from time. I suppose one could argue that if space-time is a unified thing than removing something from space (i.e. the 3 physical dimensions) is effectively the same as removing it from time (the 4th dimension) and visa versa Thinking


You wouldn't know much about it - the tidal forces would be too busy spaghettifying you Laughing

Easy-X wrote:
I find the concept of Hawking Radiation (that Black Holes can, in a way, evaporate) simple to grasp in principle but something tells me that quantum effects at the event horizon are far to convenient to be a thing. But hey, what do I know Wink


Quantum interfaces are horrendously complicated things. However, Hawking radiation does have some experimental proof behind it.

https://physicsworld.com/a/physicists-stimulate-hawking-radiation-from-optical-analogue-of-a-black-hole/

Easy-X wrote:
Regarding FTL I think the best bet is to keep on plodding on with the LHC and really get to the bottom of how things work. I would imagine somehow temporarily shifting mass into a higher dimension might allow easier sub-light speeds.

The alternative is something like Altered Carbon where one dispenses with as much physical travel as possible.

*time dilation doesn't sound right


We're eventually going to need something bigger than the LHC though and even then how things work is a bit ambitious given the ambiguous and elusive nature of quantum effects.

Time dilation is what it is. Time stretching out if you like - or even if you don't Wink
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:21 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Quantum interfaces are horrendously complicated things. However, Hawking radiation does have some experimental proof behind it.

https://physicsworld.com/a/physicists-stimulate-hawking-radiation-from-optical-analogue-of-a-black-hole/


Well yes, it's a bit tricky getting experimental data out of a real black hole Laughing I don't think any of these analogues can prove Hawking Radiation but it at least it indicates it's an effect worth looking into and may help devise a clever way of detecting said effects Thinking

But back to FTL... it's a constant annoyance that whilst most tin-foil-hat wearers are concerned about bum rape (something Freudian going on there) the problem with aliens is they effectively prove FTL is easy-peasy. By no means does the human race know much about how the universe operates but we can be pretty certain the FTL is as non-trivial as time travel Shocked

Maybe we can picture space-time as a river: it can go fast and it can go slow but it goes in one direction. Can you make a river go uphill? "Of course, dead easy" says the lockkeeper but try and map that back and were talking a fundamental reconstruction of the universe Smile
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Islander
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Islander wrote:
Quantum interfaces are horrendously complicated things. However, Hawking radiation does have some experimental proof behind it.

https://physicsworld.com/a/physicists-stimulate-hawking-radiation-from-optical-analogue-of-a-black-hole/


Well yes, it's a bit tricky getting experimental data out of a real black hole Laughing I don't think any of these analogues can prove Hawking Radiation but it at least it indicates it's an effect worth looking into and may help devise a clever way of detecting said effects Thinking

But back to FTL... it's a constant annoyance that whilst most tin-foil-hat wearers are concerned about bum rape (something Freudian going on there) the problem with aliens is they effectively prove FTL is easy-peasy. By no means does the human race know much about how the universe operates but we can be pretty certain the FTL is as non-trivial as time travel Shocked

Maybe we can picture space-time as a river: it can go fast and it can go slow but it goes in one direction. Can you make a river go uphill? "Of course, dead easy" says the lockkeeper but try and map that back and were talking a fundamental reconstruction of the universe Smile


It's not unusual to use analogues to test an idea Smile

The river, especially when talking about the time element, is the second law of thermodynamics - one of those deceptively simple laws that have massively profound implications. In its simplest form it states that heat always flows to cold. What that means is that entropy always increases and that's an important principle.

One of the things that the FTL believers never manage to explain (or understand) satisfactorily is the problem with micrometeoroids (dust) impacting their craft at superluminal velocity. At 99% of c a piece of dust with a mass of 5kg will impact with an energy of something like 0.6 kilotonnes of TNT. Now imagine that repeatedly and at even higher velocities...

At this point the conspiracy theorists will invoke physical principles we apparently can't understand because we're not advanced enough. Or just plain old "force shields man, force shields" Laughing
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 09:20 - 04 Dec 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rebel wrote:
could be operated by “intelligences of unknown origin.” 
Not the planet Venus reflecting off swamp gas then.

Communists!
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