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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

chickenstrip wrote:
No, you said you weren't a fan of the idea of dark matter. The scientific community (the professional scientific community Razz ) have not dismissed it though.


Some have. It's by no means a universally accepted theory.

I have an open mind on this but I don't like the whole dark energy thing, it sounds too much like a fudge. Modified Newtonian dynamics appeals to me more. I won't be upset if either or another theory not yet proposed turns out to be the right one though. Smile


Exactly. It's an idea based on observable phenomena. Sooner or later, an idea is going to be (hopefully - not guaranteed) proven. Similarly with dark energy. Proposals have been made, but nothing is yet proven. And if and when it is, we may well be astonished. It may even wreck a few of our current ideas about what we think we know for a certainty.

Of course I use the term "we" loosely Laughing
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 22:05 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is ... I *want* to be sensible and studious about it.
I want it to be empirically approved.
I've worked as an adjunct to STM for too long now to be able to just throw away references and proof of results.

But I genuinely believe that if its that vast out there, then there must be multitudes of dimensions that we simply cannot comprehend, and they might be a better way for us, if only we knew how to plug into them.

As said above, we don't know what we don't know.
Fuck it, I'm off for a bit of the fantastical realm on the inside of my brain pan.

Laters, science bitches.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I don't absolutely believe there are advanced alien species who have built craft and travelled to the Earth, and we've seen their craft. I haven't seen anything first hand, and theories and ideas haven't been proven. But they haven't been proven one way or the other. Therefore, for me, the jury is out. But I don't dismiss the idea altogether, and certainly not on the basis of what we already know. The recent discoveries of thousands of exoplanets alone makes things seem a little more possible. I'm just saying, we shouldn't be too smug about those things we do know, saying "our task here is done".

Notwithstanding, it's sometimes fun to let the imagination run and speculate a bit, and sometimes it even leads to solid scientific discoveries. Besides, it beats arguing with certain people about politics day in and day out - that doesn't seem altogether rational to me Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

I have an open mind on this but I don't like the whole dark energy thing, it sounds too much like a fudge. Modified Newtonian dynamics appeals to me more.


BTW; what kind of modifications do you have in mind? It seems to me that given the apparent discrepancies in the amount of matter required to cause the phenomena observed, they'd need to be quite drastic ones?

Edit: oops, definitely getting tired. Dark energy. Ok, so what would cause the expansion of the universe to speed up? What's your theory?

And dark matter - I thought there was no evidence that neutrinos could constitute anywhere near the kind of mass that would be required to explain what is seen?
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spottedtango
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem for us is everything is so far away.

I think the only way we will see aliens is if they come by for a visit.

If they do I want to ask them about new cooking recipes and sell an outta this world cookbook then retire on the money. I have get rich quick plans and this is one of them.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:25 - 03 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:

I have an open mind on this but I don't like the whole dark energy thing, it sounds too much like a fudge. Modified Newtonian dynamics appeals to me more.


BTW; what kind of modifications do you have in mind? It seems to me that given the apparent discrepancies in the amount of matter required to cause the phenomena observed, they'd need to be quite drastic ones?

Edit: oops, definitely getting tired. Dark energy. Ok, so what would cause the expansion of the universe to speed up? What's your theory?

And dark matter - I thought there was no evidence that neutrinos could constitute anywhere near the kind of mass that would be required to explain what is seen?


MOND proposes that gravity, as a force is only constant on the small scale. Over galactic distances it varies. And I've made a mistake here too - this is the alternative to dark matter not dark energy. Blame it on working in the garden all day and being a bit knackered. Laughing

There are a couple of explanations for the missing mass, that I find plausible, one is neutrinos and the other is MOND.

Dark energy has an alternative that I rather like as well that describes variable gravity over cosmological distances. When this is coupled with the concept of inhomongenous cosmology then that produces some interesting ideas.

Time, of course, will (hopefully) tell which theories are correct Smile
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believing could be something to look forward to.

Even if it's death by alien bum probing rather than from maniacal leaders hellbent on f**king us over.

PS I have stockpiled lots of lube. Wink
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 05:35 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Believing could be something to look forward to.

Even if it's death by alien bum probing rather than from maniacal leaders hellbent on f**king us over.

PS I have stockpiled lots of lube. Wink


You there!
Come in here.
And bring your lube.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wondered why the first conclusion people jump to when there is evidence that 'UFO's' exist is aliens?

I mean, we live in one of the most conspiracy theory rich times in my living memory, and people are going with 'Aliens' as the answer? Could it not be stuff we've invented that is secret? Or stuff the Russians have invented that are secret?

Aliens seems like a massive stretch anyway. Time travellers would almost be a more realistic answer. There are certainly more realistic speculative physics surrounding that than interstellar travel.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course, then there're the folks that believe we are living in a simulation (I'm not one of them, but who knows?). If that were the case, you could throw just about anything into the mix, however weird. But it seems to me that those folks who believe this are just looking for an alternative god.

@Islander, there has been no conclusive evidence to suggest that neutrinos would provide the necessary mass for the behaviour of, for e.g., galaxy formation. Suggestions seem to be they would provide no more than about 10% of the necessary, at most. But you haven't placed all your faith on this anyway, have you? Because you know there are likely vast gaps in your knowledge, as with the rest of us.

Varying gravity over distance? Seems to me to fly in the face of all we know about gravity (but I'm no astrophysicist). But then, it is an idea, just like aliens are currently, for us, an idea. It is no more strange to me that people would speculate over alien life forms and intergalactic travel than they would over variable gravity. If gravity is stranger than we currently know, what else might be?

@MarJay: secret tech. is something I mentioned earlier, and does seem more plausible, given what we know. Visiting aliens is not my conclusion - I haven't come to a conclusion, since I don't have enough evidence one way or the other. But what do we know? The universe consistently demonstrates that it is stranger and more complex than we imagined. And given that, it seems sensible to me to keep an open mind. The current backlash against 'experts' stems from the smugness of some in their ideas and theories, many of which aren't proven. I'd tend to listen to them more than a bunch of anonymous folks on the internet because they are usually intelligent, appropriately educated people, but they are also only human, with all the foibles of our species, and I have sometimes been surprised at some of the ideas some of them suggest along with their demonstrated expertise.

If we one day found out that aliens had indeed been visiting our planet, it would become a natural thing in our minds, including any weird and wonderful tech. they might have that we subsequently learned about. My outlook is don't be surprised about what surprises you. If the universe is as vast as we think it is, and that possibly just part of a multiverse with all the possible connotations that may have, we know nothing!
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

But what do we know? The universe consistently demonstrates that it is stranger and more complex than we imagined. And given that, it seems sensible to me to keep an open mind. The current backlash against 'experts' stems from the smugness of some in their ideas and theories, many of which aren't proven.


I'd love to believe that was true, but rationally it doesn't bear out.

Unproven theories. This is a doozy. So Gravity is a theory but nobody is leaping to try to disprove it. Same with Relativity, thermodynamics, atomic theory etc etc. The results you get are self evident, it's just that further down the line we might refine that theory to allow us to understand it better. Rarely are theories like this completely disproven. Normally just a level of detail is added.

I don't see many smug scientists. In fact, science is the one arena where people need to be contradicted, they need to have more evidence. The most smug people I see on TV tend to be economists or political experts with books that have just been released, and that's because they want to sell books.

Also, the Universe complexity thing... The universe can be explained by two or three relatively simple mathematical equations, and theoretical physicists have been working for years on unifying those. If the Universe could be explained by one mathematical model how does that make it more complex than we realised? It's not more or less complex than we realise, it's just our understanding that is limited. However, there are basic physical laws that physicists don't disagree on, and that minimal understanding can tell us quite a lot, and can inform as to what is probably not true as well as what is true.

One thing that those theories tell us is that interstellar travel is basically impossible. We might be wrong about that, but as explained in a Kids TV show I watched years ago "we've nearly got it right". It's not an aspect of science that is likely to be disproven. There might be some further refinement of those physical ideas and laws but I don't think aliens popping up from Zeta Reticuli is suddenly going to become a reality. Which is more realistic? Aliens travelling vast distances using unimaginable amounts of energy just to show themselves to tired pilots? Or humans with all their fallibility and bias believing they are seeing one thing when actually they are seeing something else?

There is an open mind, but then there is filling that gap with imagination rather than logic. That's what conspiracy theorists do, that's what anti vaxxers do, that's what climate change deniers do. There's no reason to believe that these things are even flying machines let alone flying machines of alien origin. Sure, it would probably be *nice* to believe that, but rationally? I really don't think so.

It's a bit like a lot of things in our recent history. There are things where it would be nice if they were true but the reality is otherwise. Such as climate change denial and certain other popular political ideas. It's human nature to believe what is comfortable to believe. Religion even explicitly states this with the idea of 'Faith'. You choose to believe there is a deity as there isn't any evidence for it, and rationally the universe is just a huge mathematical system which is indifferent to life. We're just here by chance, and there is no evidence that was even jump started by some conscious being, let alone our lives are being controlled.

Conspiracy theorists latch on to things because they want to have knowledge that others don't have. So in their case it's easier and nicer for them to believe crazy out there theories with no evidence than it is to accept what is most likely the truth. It's exhilarating, but it's brain chemistry, not rationality.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'm getting bored with this now Laughing
Just let me assure you I have nothing invested in the idea of visiting aliens, just as I have nothing invested in the idea of string theory, dark matter and energy, or even whether strawberry cheesecake is better than blackcurrant cheesecake.
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spottedtango
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PostPosted: 11:45 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Ok, I'm getting bored with this now Laughing
Just let me assure you I have nothing invested in the idea of visiting aliens, just as I have nothing invested in the idea of string theory, dark matter and energy, or even whether strawberry cheesecake is better than blackcurrant cheesecake.


Admit it, the aliens are telling you to say that.

Now I know. The aliens are here to take our cheesecakes and leave us with the cheap yellow soft scoop ice cream. Thats the plan.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aliens told me to abandon rationality and ride motorcycles for fun.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

First day of furlough.

Thank God for BCF science Cool

The discussion on page 1 about photos makes me wonder why we haven't seen pictures of the Apollo landers on the moon's surface. That would close that whole conspiracy theory

The universe is big. Far bigger than you might expect. I have to resurrect this old chestnut:
https://www.facebook.com/CollectiveEvolutionPage/videos/10154629625863908/

The scale STARTS at 2.2 lightyears, which is about 50,000 years worth of traveling for us.

If there are aliens capable of traveling vast distances, it is somewhat arrogant of us to think they'd visit us. There are plenty of other places for them to go Thumbs Up

The time travel argument is interesting, if you ignore the Grandfather paradox. The solution here is the many worlds theory, each time you make a decision the universe splits into two with both outcomes existing (credit to Red Dwarf where I first learnt of this).

Hence traveling into the past splits the universe, and if you kill your grandfather, it is a parallel version, so you would not be born in that version of reality.

Problem solved Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:

If there are aliens capable of traveling vast distances, it is somewhat arrogant of us to think they'd visit us. There are plenty of other places for them to go Thumbs Up


Perhaps those places are even more overcrowded than Earth. Or maybe the beaches aren't as good.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
bhinso wrote:

If there are aliens capable of traveling vast distances, it is somewhat arrogant of us to think they'd visit us. There are plenty of other places for them to go Thumbs Up


Perhaps those places are even more overcrowded than Earth. Or maybe the beaches aren't as good.


Maybe they are their version of David Attenborough and they are filming nature documentaries.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they've heard about our vast array of benefits and are fleeing war torn cignus prime.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
First day of furlough.

Thank God for BCF science Cool

The discussion on page 1 about photos makes me wonder why we haven't seen pictures of the Apollo landers on the moon's surface. That would close that whole conspiracy theory



I'll come back to the other stuff later but this is an easy pick Mr. Green

In short, there have been photos taken at very high resolution by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) and published on NASA's excellent website.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/revisited/index.html

Of course for your average conspiracy nut, these aren't proof because FAKES DON'T YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!

Of course, you could fly your average conspiracy nut to the moon itself, take them by the hand and lead them to the LEM stages remaining, show them the footprints and all the scientific gear left behind and they'd still probably claim that NASA faked it all 5 minutes before they landed. Laughing Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
I've always wondered why the first conclusion people jump to when there is evidence that 'UFO's' exist is aliens?

I mean, we live in one of the most conspiracy theory rich times in my living memory, and people are going with 'Aliens' as the answer? Could it not be stuff we've invented that is secret? Or stuff the Russians have invented that are secret?

Aliens seems like a massive stretch anyway. Time travellers would almost be a more realistic answer. There are certainly more realistic speculative physics surrounding that than interstellar travel.


Time travel isn't possible. The nearest you're going to get to that is looking up into the night sky and seeing stars that you're actually seeing in the past due to the time that their light takes to reach us.

As for the secret stuff well yes, absolutely yes! There were lots of UFO reports around the Groom Lake area of Nevada (Area 51) and lots of claims of alien technology. Wait a few years and the stealth fighter and bomber appear in the skies. Laughing

I don't get why people are so insecure they have an almost pathological need to believe in alien visitations but there you are. People are strange... Thumbs Up
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Time travel isn't possible.


There are a few different ways that you could theoretically travel through time, the most reliable of which would limit the machine to being able to travel to the point when the machine was made at the earliest. However, you'd need a near infinitely advanced civilization to be able to generate the energy to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9CF5pwVtTY
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
And of course, then there're the folks that believe we are living in a simulation (I'm not one of them, but who knows?). If that were the case, you could throw just about anything into the mix, however weird. But it seems to me that those folks who believe this are just looking for an alternative god.


You'd be surprised how popular that theory is...


chickenstrip wrote:
@Islander, there has been no conclusive evidence to suggest that neutrinos would provide the necessary mass for the behaviour of, for e.g., galaxy formation. Suggestions seem to be they would provide no more than about 10% of the necessary, at most. But you haven't placed all your faith on this anyway, have you? Because you know there are likely vast gaps in your knowledge, as with the rest of us.

Varying gravity over distance? Seems to me to fly in the face of all we know about gravity (but I'm no astrophysicist). But then, it is an idea, just like aliens are currently, for us, an idea. It is no more strange to me that people would speculate over alien life forms and intergalactic travel than they would over variable gravity. If gravity is stranger than we currently know, what else might be?


Equally, there's been no evidence for dark matter despite increasingly sensitive detection equipment being developed and put into use.

One of the fun things about science is that you get these gaps in knowledge that people develop conflicting theories to explain. You look at them and decide which one sounds the most plausible and appeals but you also keep an open mind on the subject. Smile

Gravity could easily be variable over large distances - we don't even know what gravity really is yet. Is it a force? Is it an effect of mass on space time? Is it in our universe or is it a strong force acting on us from an adjacent brane (M theory)? Is there a gauge boson for it (graviton)?

We only know about the effects in our local neighbourhood really - and other local neighbourhoods we observe and measure. How it applies across vast scales, well, we haven't got proof either way yet although LIGO may well eventually say its a cosmological constant after all. Smile

Keeping an open mind it what it's all about in the long run. Thumbs Up


chickenstrip wrote:
@MarJay: secret tech. is something I mentioned earlier, and does seem more plausible, given what we know. Visiting aliens is not my conclusion - I haven't come to a conclusion, since I don't have enough evidence one way or the other. But what do we know? The universe consistently demonstrates that it is stranger and more complex than we imagined. And given that, it seems sensible to me to keep an open mind. The current backlash against 'experts' stems from the smugness of some in their ideas and theories, many of which aren't proven. I'd tend to listen to them more than a bunch of anonymous folks on the internet because they are usually intelligent, appropriately educated people, but they are also only human, with all the foibles of our species, and I have sometimes been surprised at some of the ideas some of them suggest along with their demonstrated expertise.

If we one day found out that aliens had indeed been visiting our planet, it would become a natural thing in our minds, including any weird and wonderful tech. they might have that we subsequently learned about. My outlook is don't be surprised about what surprises you. If the universe is as vast as we think it is, and that possibly just part of a multiverse with all the possible connotations that may have, we know nothing!


Scientists are human. Some are scrupulous in their probity and some aren't and will lie and cheat to gain authority. Academic competition is pretty cut throat so human weakness is bound to appear from time to time. They usually get caught out though which is why peer review is such a good thing.

Alien visitations though? Nah. Rational explanation FTW. Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Islander wrote:
Time travel isn't possible.


There are a few different ways that you could theoretically travel through time, the most reliable of which would limit the machine to being able to travel to the point when the machine was made at the earliest. However, you'd need a near infinitely advanced civilization to be able to generate the energy to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9CF5pwVtTY


I've read a lot of arguments for and against time travel, the majority of theoretical physicists think it's not possible. I agree with them on the whole.

Yes there are relativistic effects that can be seen but they're not really time travel as such but rather are views from different frames of reference. If it was possible to put something through time then it would only ever be forwards by the use of relativistic effects in my opinion. In relativistic frames of reference, time is variable as is distance but only within that frame of reference. If you fell into a black hole, I would see you remain for eternity just outside of the event horizon. For you, you'd be instantly spaghettified by the immense tidal forces. The universe is a strange place on the whole.

If someone comes up with a definitive proof that it is possible then I'll happily change my mind but until then, I'm firmly in the 'nope, not possible' camp. Thumbs Up
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Ok, I'm getting bored with this now Laughing
Just let me assure you I have nothing invested in the idea of visiting aliens, just as I have nothing invested in the idea of string theory, dark matter and energy, or even whether strawberry cheesecake is better than blackcurrant cheesecake.


I never thought you had. Very Happy

Devil's advocate is a fun (and really important) position to take. Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 04 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

It killed the best part of the day for me. What's next? Smile
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