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Coby
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Joined: 02 May 2020
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Electric Bikes Reply with quote
Hi All'

How come Electric bikes haven't got a gearbox?

Wouldn't it be a bit boring always coming into and out of apexes in the same gear.
Plus if you had a gearbox you could get more out of the power pack couldn't you?

When I see an article about new electric bikes in the motorcycle press, I always think to myself "I wonder how many gears it's got"; the answer's always the same - one. Crying or Very sad
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Re: Electric Bikes Reply with quote
Coby wrote:
Hi All'

How come Electric bikes haven't got a gearbox?

Wouldn't it be a bit boring always coming into and out of apexes in the same gear.
Plus if you had a gearbox you could get more out of the power pack couldn't you?

When I see an article about new electric bikes in the motorcycle press, I always think to myself "I wonder how many gears it's got"; the answer's always the same - one. Crying or Very sad


Then you haven't been doing your research thoroughly, but granted, most don't, there is no need to. Also, what's the big deal about having a gear box, I'm guessing you also stick with the mantra, loud pipes save lives ! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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martin734
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Re: Electric Bikes Reply with quote
Coby wrote:
Hi All'

How come Electric bikes haven't got a gearbox?

Wouldn't it be a bit boring always coming into and out of apexes in the same gear.
Plus if you had a gearbox you could get more out of the power pack couldn't you?

When I see an article about new electric bikes in the motorcycle press, I always think to myself "I wonder how many gears it's got"; the answer's always the same - one. Crying or Very sad

They don't need a gearbox. Unlike petrol engines, DC electric motors produce almost 100% of their maximum torque from 0 rpm right through their entire speed range and because they only have 1 moving part they can reach very high rotational speeds. Gearboxes allow petrol and diesel engines to most effectively use their limited torque range and comparatively low speed.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Re: Electric Bikes Reply with quote
Coby wrote:
How come Electric bikes haven't got a gearbox?

Brammo Empulse R.
EDIT: It does look rather convincing https://youtu.be/ml8uCs4EPpY?t=170 but I could have the same amount of fun a on a much, much more affordable petrol powered machine, that won't take several hours to charge.

Coby wrote:
Wouldn't it be a bit boring always coming into and out of apexes in the same gear. Plus if you had a gearbox you could get more out of the power pack couldn't you?

Have you ever been on a scooter? A cruiser with DCT perhaps? A gearbox is also a place where power gets lost, so a 6 speed electric bike would have worse range than a single speed electric bike. It also makes no sense, as there is crap loads of torque avalible. No need to spin the engine to reach it either.

Coby wrote:
When I see an article about new electric bikes in the motorcycle press, I always think to myself "I wonder how many gears it's got"; the answer's always the same - one. Crying or Very sad

Some of them might have two gears.
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 20:09 - 09 May 2020; edited 2 times in total
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P.
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ever wondered why people don't think before posting?
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Coby
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PostPosted: 20:09 - 09 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some have two gears?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think Kawasaki were looking into electric bikes with gears. Not sure whether it was simulated or mechanically real.

Daft as this thread may be a "torque limit" gearbox simulation might make more sense to ICE bike riders. E.g. "gear 1" lets you have 10% power at full throttle, "gear 2" 25%, 50% and so on.

That way you don't accidentally wheelie the thing when the lights change Smile (Which I did do several times attempting to pedal + throttle with my eBike.)

Refining it further you could even have the top gears doing a minimum amount of power. Like you were cutting the power into sections. From my experience of electric throttles the main problem is you have all of the power in just a 1/2 turn.
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can see a reason for "gear" control on electric... So you can have controlled bands for acceleration and speed... For instance you're not going to want your full range when stuck in a 20mph zone. And where a twitch of a risk can send you doing 60mph....

I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

Anyway, in 10 years we find out, no new petrol vehicles Sad
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
NutsyUK wrote:
I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

I've wondered the same, but if electric motor efficiency does vary with revs it's probably not enough to justify the additional weight of a clutch and gearbox. We're thinking like ICE users. The weak link in EVs is the battery, not the motor.
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
NutsyUK wrote:
I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

I've wondered the same, but if electric motor efficiency does vary with revs it's probably not enough to justify the additional weight of a clutch and gearbox. We're thinking like ICE users. The weak link in EVs is the battery, not the motor.


oh very much so....

if a sports bike battery can only top off about 50 miles a charge or 100 maybe... then its useless..... :/
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Lexmoto XTR S 125 Sold!
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1198
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
I think Kawasaki were looking into electric bikes with gears. Not sure whether it was simulated or mechanically real.

Daft as this thread may be a "torque limit" gearbox simulation might make more sense to ICE bike riders. E.g. "gear 1" lets you have 10% power at full throttle, "gear 2" 25%, 50% and so on.

That way you don't accidentally wheelie the thing when the lights change Smile (Which I did do several times attempting to pedal + throttle with my eBike.)

Refining it further you could even have the top gears doing a minimum amount of power. Like you were cutting the power into sections. From my experience of electric throttles the main problem is you have all of the power in just a 1/2 turn.


Wouldn’t a longer action throttle cure most of that - maybe with a well sorted traction control / wheelie control for the more powerful ranges?
I’ve never heard of anyone complaining about the throttle needing a longer action though. Most often the complaint is the exact opposite...
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1198
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Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Re: Electric Bikes Reply with quote
Coby wrote:
Hi All'

How come Electric bikes haven't got a gearbox?

Wouldn't it be a bit boring always coming into and out of apexes in the same gear.
Plus if you had a gearbox you could get more out of the power pack couldn't you?

When I see an article about new electric bikes in the motorcycle press, I always think to myself "I wonder how many gears it's got"; the answer's always the same - one. Crying or Very sad


As posted above electric motors have their torque available from pretty much zero to max rpm. A gearbox is more complexity, cost, weight and also there’s an increased maintenance requirement. Why if it’s not needed?
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iooi
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PostPosted: 14:02 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
NutsyUk wrote:
I can see a reason for "gear" control on electric... So you can have controlled bands for acceleration and speed... For instance you're not going to want your full range when stuck in a 20mph zone. And where a twitch of a risk can send you doing 60mph....

I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

Anyway, in 10 years we find out, no new petrol vehicles Sad


It's called the throttle to brain interface. Thumbs Up

Crack open a 600cc in 1st or 2nd in a 20 zone and you will be doing 60+.
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1198
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
NutsyUk wrote:
I can see a reason for "gear" control on electric... So you can have controlled bands for acceleration and speed... For instance you're not going to want your full range when stuck in a 20mph zone. And where a twitch of a risk can send you doing 60mph....

I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

Anyway, in 10 years we find out, no new petrol vehicles Sad


It's called the throttle to brain interface. Thumbs Up

Crack open a 600cc in 1st or 2nd in a 20 zone and you will be doing 60+.


Or sat on your arse watching it flip then tumble down the road!
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NutsyUk
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Joined: 22 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
NutsyUk wrote:
I can see a reason for "gear" control on electric... So you can have controlled bands for acceleration and speed... For instance you're not going to want your full range when stuck in a 20mph zone. And where a twitch of a risk can send you doing 60mph....

I also wonder if gears can add to an efficiency curve though on electric.

Anyway, in 10 years we find out, no new petrol vehicles Sad


It's called the throttle to brain interface. Thumbs Up

Crack open a 600cc in 1st or 2nd in a 20 zone and you will be doing 60+.


Sure if you turn the throttle all the way.... but thats not going to work like that with a electric when you want the ..... resolution.... in the throttle Smile


Tbh i can see there being a gear/band electric control not a mechanical gear just a program that sets the band or a non linear curve control on the throttle... all done via a program...

If anything to simulate the acceleration curve of a petrol bike... to be as torquey or as smooth as the rider wants it. This being if we get past the battery issue
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Kawasaki ER6F 2007 650 Gonna sell as a project bike!
Lexmoto XTR S 125 Sold!
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Coby
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 10 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed, extra weight of a mechanical gearbox to carry would be an issue:

But how much potential for acceleration and top end could you open up with a power plant such as these and a lovely, oily, five or six speed mechanical gearbox.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
NutsyUk wrote:


If anything to simulate the acceleration curve of a petrol bike... to be as torquey or as smooth as the rider wants it. This being if we get past the battery issue


Why do you want to simulate the effect of a ICE engine?

When you have a much better linear power delivery from a electric motor.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe he's scared of acceleration?
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NutsyUk
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Joined: 22 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 11:45 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not scared... But if you didn't have some kind of curve model at least, you'll flip the bike... The torque on performance motors is that high...

The er6f is torquey and twitchy in the lower gears... I'm more than used to it. But I personally prefer the smoothness of a good 4 cylinder. Just more comfortable...
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Yamaha FZ8/Fazer800 (split headlight one) 2014, gingerly getting used to the massive increase in HP and not killing myself in the process! That was easy to get used to.
Kawasaki ER6F 2007 650 Gonna sell as a project bike!
Lexmoto XTR S 125 Sold!
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
From what I've seen electric bikes have various riding modes governing power output of the motor and how aggressive the regen braking is.

What would be nice is if the mode switch was where the clutch lever would have been. For example, riding through town: Mode 1 - severe eco mode, transition to NSL and flick the pedal up to Mode 2 - full power. Fumbling about with UI navigation controls on the handlebar switches is distracting.
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Coby
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
This threads' becoming fascinating.

I hope the manufacturers are reading it.
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Coby
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is there any way to turn down the 'instant' torque a bit and spread the power over a mechanical gearbox?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Coby wrote:
Is there any way to turn down the 'instant' torque a bit and spread the power over a mechanical gearbox?


There's absolutely no need for mechanical additions it can be quite easily restricted as a function of the motor's controller.

eBike/eMotorbikes are all eThrottle, i.e. the twist throttle just varies a voltage output (usually 0 to 5V) and then the controller considers what power to direct to the motor. Things like limiting power, cutting power over a certain speed and the like are trivial capabilities.
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Coby
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK Easy,

but what you believe there is a need for; and what is possible are two different things.

I'm talking theoretically here.
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Coby
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 11 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
What are the British manufacturers going to do if Kawasaki come up with an electric power plant that sits straight on top of their Z400 gearbox; and they make the greatest little mid-range bike in the world?
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 3 years, 350 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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