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Honda CG125 - Clutch gone?

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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh. How to use a hand file. You're probably doing it wrong. I know I was.

https://youtu.be/h4KaiG7CpSQ
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Yup, there's your answer then.

You can re-dress the notched edges back to flat with a file or burr but you land up with more slack in the system so it'll happen again faster next time. Not wrong if you are short on cash, costs nothing but time.

Check the plain plates are flat by placing them on a sheet of glass and seeing if they rock or you can get a feeler guage under them. If they are, clean them by de-greasing then sticking some wet and dry paper to a sheet of glass/flat marble slab and sanding in a side-to-side motion to get the blueing off. Then THOROUGHLY clean off again. I actually bung them in the sink, hot soapy water, rinse with hot water, dry immediately and spray with WD40 to stop flash-rust. You don't want any residue from the abrasive getting into your oil

The friction plates don't look horrible and the tangs don't look particularly notched so you'd just need to check if the thickness is within the tolerance stated in the manual.

Also check the splines on the clutch hub for notching.



ive just filed the edges down flat on the worst side of the notching, i left the other side as it wasn't too bad and didn't want to file that down which would increase that gap which means more play on the Friction Plates.

Imgur Photo Link: https://imgur.com/a/qwUFhCv


i checked both Friction Plates and Steel Plates on a tile and checked with a feeler gauge (20) for gaps.
The Friction Plates were good, the Steel Plates had a tiny bit of movement/gap , this may be that the tile wasn't 100% flat, ill try this on a sheet of Glass now.

The Splines on the Clutch Hub have no notching. Smile

The springs need to be 35.50mm, I used a Tape Measure (i have no Calliper unfortunately) and it they were 35mm or just a hair width under. Obviously i cant tell for certain with a Tape Measure!


If this fails, do we agree that the Clutch Basket kit from "Wemoto" or "eBay" for a (1998) with the last Friction Plate at different angle wont work with my bike? (1996) (All Friction Plates Aligned)?

EDIT: Clutch Hub, should it look like this? Burnt mark in the middle? Roughly in line with where the blackest Steel Plate was? https://imgur.com/gallery/bn2V9AX

Thank You!

Cheers
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steve the grease
Crazy Courier



Joined: 26 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
dynax wrote:
Which oil specifically did you use, because it sounds like clutch slip which would happen if you used an engine oil for cars by mistake, any oil has to be for motorcycles only Thumbs Up


Nah. I've been running my bikes on car oil for decades. It might highlight a clutch that was already on the way out but won't actually cause clutch slip in a normally functioning one..


I too have been running bikes on car oil for years, and never a problem , if you choose an appropriate grade.
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
If this fails, do we agree that the Clutch Basket kit from "Wemoto" or "eBay" for a (1998) with the last Friction Plate at different angle wont work with my bike? (1996) (All Friction Plates Aligned)?

EDIT: Clutch Hub, should it look like this? Burnt mark in the middle? Roughly in line with where the blackest Steel Plate was? https://imgur.com/gallery/bn2V9AX

I'd take a punt in the £12+post eBay one.

What is the state of the clutch plate that corresponds with the mark on the clutch centre?
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 16:22 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
If this fails, do we agree that the Clutch Basket kit from "Wemoto" or "eBay" for a (1998) with the last Friction Plate at different angle wont work with my bike? (1996) (All Friction Plates Aligned)?

EDIT: Clutch Hub, should it look like this? Burnt mark in the middle? Roughly in line with where the blackest Steel Plate was? https://imgur.com/gallery/bn2V9AX

I'd take a punt in the £12+post eBay one.

What is the state of the clutch plate that corresponds with the mark on the clutch centre?



Sorry I’m not sure what you mean: state of the Clutch Plate that corresponds With the mark on the Clutch Center?
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello,

This afternoon I cleaned up and sanded the steel clutch plates, they came up nice, I did a trial re assembly of everything back together and fitted.

Clutch cover back on, and cable connected to the actuator. Still both Clutch Cable adjustments screwed all they way in like they were before, I’ve not touched them.

Putting the bike into gear, it locks up the back wheel kinda like it should. I still have no amount of play in the clutch lever though.

When I put then Clutch Cable in the Actuator, I still had to put quite some pressure on the Actuator to get it to a point for it to reach the cable.

In whole, Correct me if wrong:
This doing so must slightly disengage the Clutch just enough for the bike to sort of be rideable but make it slip constantly? Causing the Clutch Plates to wear down a bit?


Long story short:

The Clutch Cable is incorrect and too short? The Wrong, short Clutch Cable means Actuator had wrong/ too much tension on it causing The Clutch to be slightly disengaged. Causing the high Revs and no power when driving. Ultimately causing it to completely fail?

If that’s right, how do I have most of the “pad” on the Friction Plates still there and not worn right down? Albeit they were black along with the Steel Plates and stunk! Haha

It’s kind of handy this happened I guess, it caused me to learn and also find the state of what the Clutch Basket was in! Those grooves were bad!

I’ve ordered a new Gasket for the Clutch Cover and I am also going to order a new Clutch Cable now. Do I need to use any sealer on the Gasket or it it literally place on and then screw up?

No more I can do until the parts arrive now I think.

I may order some new Springs too.

Hopefully my job of filing the Clutch Basket works.


Thank You for your help Everyone!

Cheers!
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
Sorry I’m not sure what you mean: state of the Clutch Plate that corresponds With the mark on the Clutch Center?

The clutch plates all sit next to each other. When you took them out, either one or two at a tile or maybe the whole lot came out at once, one would have been in a position just above the mark. It, or possibly one each side of it, might show signs of being the caause of the mark, which I would guess is from dust of friction material and oil mixed dripping back onto the centre when the engine's stopped (repeating after each run). That's all; just perhaps one plate may be a bit more worn than the others, or show signs of having been made hot, or something.
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
Sorry I’m not sure what you mean: state of the Clutch Plate that corresponds With the mark on the Clutch Center?

The clutch plates all sit next to each other. When you took them out, either one or two at a tile or maybe the whole lot came out at once, one would have been in a position just above the mark. It, or possibly one each side of it, might show signs of being the caause of the mark, which I would guess is from dust of friction material and oil mixed dripping back onto the centre when the engine's stopped (repeating after each run). That's all; just perhaps one plate may be a bit more worn than the others, or show signs of having been made hot, or something.



i remember one of the Friction Plates had a white coating to the pads which wiped away pretty easily, it was only on one side too.
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Riejufixing
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
The Clutch Cable is incorrect and too short? The Wrong, short Clutch Cable means Actuator had wrong/ too much tension on it causing The Clutch to be slightly disengaged. Causing the high Revs and no power when driving. Ultimately causing it to completely fail?

If that’s right, how do I have most of the “pad” on the Friction Plates still there and not worn right down? Albeit they were black along with the Steel Plates and stunk! Haha

Clutch cable being incorrect sounds possible, is it likely to have had a new one put on? Does what you have look like this NOS one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Honda-CG125-clutch-cable/333113392053?epid=655516054&hash=item4d8f1afbb5:g:a7sAAOSwm79ch5jC ? Is the cable actually entering the handlebar lever and the actuator arm adjuster properly (check there's nothing in the sockets, just in case) and is the nipple at the actuator arm seating properly (I guess thea answers will be "It's all OK").

Is there any adjustment on the clutch actuator arm itself, i.e. is there a spline or similar that someone could have fitted wrong, meaning the arm's rotated more than it should be?
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jeffyjeff
World Chat Champion



Joined: 02 May 2020
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
In whole, Correct me if wrong:
This doing so must slightly disengage the Clutch just enough for the bike to sort of be rideable but make it slip constantly? Causing the Clutch Plates to wear down a bit?
Long story short:
The Clutch Cable is incorrect and too short? The Wrong, short Clutch Cable means Actuator had wrong/ too much tension on it causing The Clutch to be slightly disengaged. Causing the high Revs and no power when driving. Ultimately causing it to completely fail?
Cheers!


Yes, and yes. A short cable is causing your clutch to run slightly disengaged all the time. Be aware that "short cable", in this case, means that it is too short for the length of the jacket. If the entire cable length is long enough (that is, if you can turn the handlebars lock to lock without affecting the position of the transmission actuator lever), you might be able to trim a little (1/4 inch approximately) off the cable jacket to make some slack where you need it. Worth a try if you get impatient waiting for the new cable to arrive
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 17:53 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
The Clutch Cable is incorrect and too short? The Wrong, short Clutch Cable means Actuator had wrong/ too much tension on it causing The Clutch to be slightly disengaged. Causing the high Revs and no power when driving. Ultimately causing it to completely fail?

If that’s right, how do I have most of the “pad” on the Friction Plates still there and not worn right down? Albeit they were black along with the Steel Plates and stunk! Haha

Clutch cable being incorrect sounds possible, is it likely to have had a new one put on? Does what you have look like this NOS one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Honda-CG125-clutch-cable/333113392053?epid=655516054&hash=item4d8f1afbb5:g:a7sAAOSwm79ch5jC ? Is the cable actually entering the handlebar lever and the actuator arm adjuster properly (check there's nothing in the sockets, just in case) and is the nipple at the actuator arm seating properly (I guess thea answers will be "It's all OK").

Is there any adjustment on the clutch actuator arm itself, i.e. is there a spline or similar that someone could have fitted wrong, meaning the arm's rotated more than it should be?



The cable does seem to be there a while and definitely not new, the threads on the cable where it attaches on the Engine Casing attachment are a tad rusty and brown so im guessing its and old one.

Yeah everything seated as it should, No adjustment on the Clutch Actuator, When i put the Clutch cover back on i made sure the Actuator was facing the correct way and seated properly on the pushrod.
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 17:59 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
jeffyjeff wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
In whole, Correct me if wrong:
This doing so must slightly disengage the Clutch just enough for the bike to sort of be rideable but make it slip constantly? Causing the Clutch Plates to wear down a bit?
Long story short:
The Clutch Cable is incorrect and too short? The Wrong, short Clutch Cable means Actuator had wrong/ too much tension on it causing The Clutch to be slightly disengaged. Causing the high Revs and no power when driving. Ultimately causing it to completely fail?
Cheers!


Yes, and yes. A short cable is causing your clutch to run slightly disengaged all the time. Be aware that "short cable", in this case, means that it is too short for the length of the jacket. If the entire cable length is long enough (that is, if you can turn the handlebars lock to lock without affecting the position of the transmission actuator lever), you might be able to trim a little (1/4 inch approximately) off the cable jacket to make some slack where you need it. Worth a try if you get impatient waiting for the new cable to arrive



Yeah, the actual whole length of the cable is plenty long enough. As you said, its just the internal cable that isnt reaching long enough.
my first thoughts were to trim off a little bit of the jacket. Ive ordered a new cable but i might just try this in a minute.

Also, i was just about to order new clutch springs, with my current ones just a hairs under the correct length and in the manuals tolerance (i think, just by using a tape measure), is this a waste of time and money.
I know they are cheap and it cant hurt but every little pound counts at the minute haha.
i guess answering my own question again is: No, i dont need to order some if they are in the tolerance.

Thank You,

Cheers!
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
Also, i was just about to order new clutch springs, with my current ones just a hairs under the correct length and in the manuals tolerance (i think, just by using a tape measure), is this a waste of time and money

The manual says replace if less than 34.2mm. If they're not shorter, they're servicable. If they are all the same length, you could measure the lot, end to end, and divide.



Spring free length 35.50 mm (1.3976 in)
Wearlimit 34.20mm (1.3465 in)
Compressed length 23.00 mm (0.9055 in)
Spring pressure (compressed) 23.8 kg (52.5 lbs)
Wearlimit 21.8 kg (48.1 lbs)
Friction plate thickness 2.90-3.00 mm (0.1 142-0.11 81 in)
Wearlimit 2.60mm (0.1024in)[/quote]
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
Also, i was just about to order new clutch springs, with my current ones just a hairs under the correct length and in the manuals tolerance (i think, just by using a tape measure), is this a waste of time and money

The manual says replace if less than 34.2mm. If they're not shorter, they're servicable. If they are all the same length, you could measure the lot, end to end, and divide.



Spring free length 35.50 mm (1.3976 in)
Wearlimit 34.20mm (1.3465 in)
Compressed length 23.00 mm (0.9055 in)
Spring pressure (compressed) 23.8 kg (52.5 lbs)
Wearlimit 21.8 kg (48.1 lbs)
Friction plate thickness 2.90-3.00 mm (0.1 142-0.11 81 in)
Wearlimit 2.60mm (0.1024in)
[/quote]


Thank You for Your reply,

I think ill try the current ones out, they seem to be within the tolerance, and do not look too bad.

If/When replacing with new ones, what benefits would i feel?

Thank You!

Cheers
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 19:20 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello,



ive just cut down about 12mm off the Outer Jacket of the Clutch Cable.

This relieved the tension from the Actuator, and now i can actually use the fine adjustments on the screw of the Clutch Lever and Engine Casing.

I can now put my Bike into gear and the Back Wheel locks up as should and the movement on the Clutch Lever feels something more like it now!
Theres a bit of play before i can feel the Clutch disengage now and it feels much better.

Theres also that bit of free movement on the Actuator before the Clutch disengages too. It is also easier to clip int Clutch Cable into the Actuator now as if does not have to reach so far.

ive attached a "Imgur" link with some videos to show what im talking about. In the video you will see that i have not put the Centrifugal Oil Filter back yet, (this was just a quick test fit).

Video of Clutch: https://imgur.com/a/z0RLZXr

ill have to wait until my new Clutch Cover Gasket comes before i can try it out riding it down the road.

One of my videos shows the gap between the Friction Plate "Tabs?" and the Clutch Basket edges that i filed down, can anyone let me know if this looks okay or no? theres obviously a small gap but when i tried moving them by hand they weren't rattling or anything. Different story when the bikes being ridden though?

Thank You,


Cheers
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
BRAVO! Very Happy
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
You've done a lovely job of that clutch basket Thumbs Up

If you are totally twitching to go for a ride, you could cut a new gasket out of the back of a cereal box.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
If/When replacing (clutch springs) with new ones, what benefits would i feel?

The only thing you just might feel is that the clutch lever could be a little harder to pull in, but I doubt you'd notice.

The springs' function is to press the clutch plates together (a bit like the how hydraulic fluid presses a disc brake pad on a disc, if you like) so that the friction stops them slipping on each other. If your clutch does not slip, there's no point in having new or even stronger springs.

EDIT: Now I've had a look at the cable and associated gubbins, I'm a litt;le suspicious of the thing that holds the cable outer (bracket to front of cylinder). Were that wrong, or fitted wrong, or you had your nuts in the wrong place, that would have the effect of lengthening the cable outer.

Still. Looks OK now.
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Riejufixing
World Chat Champion



Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
If you are totally twitching to go for a ride, you could cut a new gasket out of the back of a cereal box.

The thick outer cover of women's fashion-type magazines is better, 'cos it has a high clay content (if they still use that in paper). I'd guess that photo paper for printers would be good too. Still, cereal packets are indeed time-homoured.
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
You've done a lovely job of that clutch basket Thumbs Up

If you are totally twitching to go for a ride, you could cut a new gasket out of the back of a cereal box.



Thank you! I appreciate your comment!

When it comes to installing the new Gasket, do I have to use a Gasket sealer? Or just put in on then fit the cover?


Thank You,

Cheers
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:
If/When replacing (clutch springs) with new ones, what benefits would i feel?

The only thing you just might feel is that the clutch lever could be a little harder to pull in, but I doubt you'd notice.

The springs' function is to press the clutch plates together (a bit like the how hydraulic fluid presses a disc brake pad on a disc, if you like) so that the friction stops them slipping on each other. If your clutch does not slip, there's no point in having new or even stronger springs.

EDIT: Now I've had a look at the cable and associated gubbins, I'm a litt;le suspicious of the thing that holds the cable outer (bracket to front of cylinder). Were that wrong, or fitted wrong, or you had your nuts in the wrong place, that would have the effect of lengthening the cable outer.

Still. Looks OK now.



Yeah I’m not 100% sure what or why it was wrong, it seems to do the trick now though. I’ve got another Clutch Cable ordered so when that arrives I will compare the two.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I dunno about anybody else but I'm feeling very positive about the power of BCF right now...

...it's either that or the bottle of rosé I've just necked Smile
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd be inclines to use some gasket cement on one side of the gasket if possible (something like Hylomar blue).

Re your cable adjuster (next to the engine cylinder), look on page 12 of the manual, where there's a picture. Both nuts are on one side (the throttle side). Are both of your nuts on one side?
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kieranroberts1234 wrote:


When it comes to installing the new Gasket, do I have to use a Gasket sealer? Or just put in on then fit the cover?


If the facing looks clean and smooth, should be fine with just the gasket. put it on, tighten sequentially with a well fitting tool and your brain engaged so you don't strip anything. If it's rough/damaged, a thin smear of gasket compound.

My view is, a slight oil leak is a damned sight easier to fix than an oilway blocked with gasket goo.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Kieranroberts...
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 14 May 2020
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
I dunno about anybody else but I'm feeling very positive about the power of BCF right now...

...it's either that or the bottle of rosé I've just necked Smile



Everyone is so helpful! i would be grumpy as heck right now if it wasn't for you Guys helping me out! i cant Thank You lot enough!

Thank YOU!,


Cheers
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