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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think you're being too harsh, and generalising too much. If people want to ride adventure bikes, I have no problem with that. I'm sure not all of them are McGregor wannabes. And the only excuse you need not to have a fast sports bike is, "I don't want a fast sports bike."

And I'm certain I can't handle 200bhp!

Edit: I can handle a bike that has 200bhp. Well, if I can fit on it Laughing
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 14:57 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
I think you're being too harsh, and generalising too much. If people want to ride adventure bikes, I have no problem with that. I'm sure not all of them are McGregor wannabes. And the only excuse you need not to have a fast sports bike is, "I don't want a fast sports bike."

And I'm certain I can't handle 200bhp!


Of course I'm making broad strokes, I'm not talking about any individual. I'm talking about the collective psyche of the ex-sportsbike nutter. The kind of guy who bought a Brand new FireBlade in 1993 then traded it for an R1 in '98.
The sort of guy who couldn't show weakness in any of myriad ways.

I think the decline of the 600 class is also an indicator of this psychological phenomenon.
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Last edited by MarJay on 07:44 - 17 Jun 2020; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
an indicator of this psychological phenomenon.


Oh, you're really plunging the depths! Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Could the decline of the 600 class be more to do with youngster's first exciting bikes getting too expensive a territory to get into? I mean, if you threw an LC down the road, you patched it up with gaffer tape and cracked on Laughing
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
Fisty wrote:


Whatnow?


My mistake, it was Poseidon. I get confused with the usernames, because I think of both of you fisting mermaids.


Daryl Hannah or Ariel?
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Robby
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 16 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ariel. Hentai is the only thing that works for me now.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 07:38 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Could the decline of the 600 class be more to do with youngster's first exciting bikes getting too expensive a territory to get into?


Not a single proper IL4 600 supersport is A2 legal. So you can't have one until 24, by this point if they haven't ditched biking then they have either no interest in sports bikes as it's not something they have been able to play with or they just buy the 1000 and allow rider modes and other aids to tame the 200BHP.

I think licencing laws and modern electronics just made the 600 supersports irrelevant as a road bikes.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 07:42 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
The kind of guy who bought a Brand new FireBlade in 1993 then traded it for an R1 in '91.


That's this kind of guy:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Fourth_Doctor_%28Doctor_Who%29.jpg/220px-Fourth_Doctor_%28Doctor_Who%29.jpg

But even he would've been hard pushed to get an R1 in '91 cos it'd be another seven years until they were in production.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 09:36 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Clearly a typo! Fixed now.

I'm not sure that all of the change in fashion in motorcycling is down to the testing regime. Sure, it might have a small effect but sportsbikes didn't really exist in the way we see them in 1980 but people still moved on to sportsbikes from their 250LCs when they came about.

Pre DAS people still bought sportsbikes?

Nah, I think it's partially Ewan and Charley, partially fragile egos, partially the fashion generally and partially that manufacturers started making naked bikes that actually go around corners.

Both the GSX-S1000F and the Z1000SX are naked bikes with a fairing slapped on rather than fully faired bikes to begin with. Even so, I could totally understand stuff like the MT10, XSR900, GSR750, Street Triple or Ducati Monster becoming the predominant style of bike over a BMW GS. Ugh. Why do people like them? I just don't get it. If there wasn't any other bike to choose from I'd sort of get it, but as I said naked bikes are so good these days!

Anyway never mind. I got a cheap comfortable sportsbike. I'm happy.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was actually considering getting a Katana (in Black) as a next bike, which is essentially the same bike underneath as yours, but sorting the suspension and getting a power commander for it.

It's just a bit old hat really. Couldn't justify spending the money on what is essentially no further on from mid-2000's tech.

That fairing on the GSX-S though.. Shocked
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kris wrote:
I was actually considering getting a Katana (in Black) as a next bike, which is essentially the same bike underneath as yours, but sorting the suspension and getting a power commander for it.

It's just a bit old hat really. Couldn't justify spending the money on what is essentially no further on from mid-2000's tech.

That fairing on the GSX-S though.. Shocked


Kris, no it's a great bike honestly. The main downside of the Katana that I can see is that it has a 12 litre tank and so the range is about 120 miles - the same as my Buell.

Technology Smechology! It doesn't matter when a bike is as good as this. It does still have ABS and traction control, and the traction control stays in the mode you set it when you turn the ignition off.

The engine is proven. Sure, it doesn't make 200bhp, but it's not that kind of bike anyway. People go all whistful about the K5 GSXR1000 and this has basically the same lump in it. It has Brembo calipers, KYB forks and weighs 210kg wet. What is not to like? Also, the price. £11k for a Katana, and they are doing £500 off and 0% finance right now.

I don't really see how lack of technology is any kind of barrier if the bike is good enough behind it all. I mean, we all used to ride bikes with less technology back in the day?

The rear shock is not fantastic, so I may consider a Nitron in the future, but it really does go around corners as-is. The Fuelling is also as good if not better than my VFR. Suzuki took the criticism of the 1st gen GSX-S very seriously it seems. The main problem with mine is that there was loads of slack in the throttle cable which I've now dialled out.

With regard to looks, I'd much rather have a Katana without a doubt. It's better looking and it just has the attitude that both the faired and unfaired GSX-S lacks. It's also easier to tell people you have a Katana than to tie your tongue into knots saying Gee Ess Ex Ess thousand Eff.

However, I need it as a commuter, so I need the range. I had to compromise and kind of learn to live with the crosseyed owl/eagle hybrid looks. I am gutted. If the katana had a 17 litre tank I'd probably have put up with the lack of full fairing and gone for that instead.

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/crash.net/visordown.com/styles/v2_normal/s3/_85Q3406.jpg

It just f'in looks cool.
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slowside
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="MarJay"]
Kris wrote:
...£11k for a Katana, and they are doing £500 off and 0% finance right now...

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/crash.net/visordown.com/styles/v2_normal/s3/_85Q3406.jpg

It just f'in looks cool.


Some pre-reg and delivery mileage bikes are going for around £8000. They do look very nice, I have dreams that I need the extended tank range but in reality for most trips 120 miles is enough.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
slowside wrote:

Some pre-reg and delivery mileage bikes are going for around £8000. They do look very nice, I have dreams that I need the extended tank range but in reality for most trips 120 miles is enough.


Don't know anyone that actually paid money for one though - do you?

You can get (brand new) alternatives for £10k with much better spec.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kris wrote:
slowside wrote:

Some pre-reg and delivery mileage bikes are going for around £8000. They do look very nice, I have dreams that I need the extended tank range but in reality for most trips 120 miles is enough.


Don't know anyone that actually paid money for one though - do you?

You can get (brand new) alternatives for £10k with much better spec.


The only one I can think of is the Z1000SX, and that's not as nice to ride. MT09 is a different kind of thing, as is the S1000R. From what I understand the S1000R is pretty characterless.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:


I'm not sure that all of the change in fashion in motorcycling is down to the testing regime. Sure, it might have a small effect but sportsbikes didn't really exist in the way we see them in 1980 but people still moved on to sportsbikes from their 250LCs when they came about.


But you can't come into motorcycling at 17 now and immediately have a bike that is as fun as an LC. Those early years are very important in forming your persona, your interests, not to mention at that age the brain is still forming, making connections, easily influenced and the connections will then become firmer - by 24, you have largely been 'fashioned' into the kind of person you will be for the rest of your life, barring some kind of effort to change. If you don't learn to enjoy the madness from those teenage years, the bug won't be there.

MarJay wrote:
The main downside of the Katana that I can see is that it has a 12 litre tank


On a litre 4! Ridiculous!

MarJay wrote:
I don't really see how lack of technology is any kind of barrier if the bike is good enough behind it all. I mean, we all used to ride bikes with less technology back in the day?


Amen, but I guess it's what you're brought up with.

MarJay wrote:
The rear shock is not fantastic


Rolling Eyes When are manufacturers going to start putting decent suspension on new bikes from the off?! Surely good shocks have been around long enough that it isn't that expensive to do? Unforgivable in this day and age.

MarJay wrote:
I'd much rather have a Katana without a doubt. It's better looking and it just has the attitude


Call me a child, but that's important to me to an extent too! Again, how the early mind is formed - or in my case, failed to form Laughing

MarJay wrote:
From what I understand the S1000R is pretty characterless.


Hey, Hetzer! Fite! Pass the popcorn Laughing

That Katana makes me feel the need to do a mad big bore/cams/turbo/supercharger, tyre smoking, licence shredding, brain melting monster bike! Twisted Evil Laughing
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Kris
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:


The only one I can think of is the Z1000SX, and that's not as nice to ride. MT09 is a different kind of thing, as is the S1000R. From what I understand the S1000R is pretty characterless.


2019 speed triple 's' or the MT10 (both on pre-delivery miles)

I'd rather have either of those over a Katana, and I really like the Katana's looks. Just not great value IMO.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kris wrote:


I'd rather have either of those over a Katana, and I really like the Katana's looks. Just not great value IMO.


I get it. It looks like it has attitude, but I kind of suspect that it won't feel like that to ride it.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 22:50 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
I get it. It looks like it has attitude, but I kind of suspect that it won't feel like that to ride it.


Having ridden the GSX-S it has a Suzuki rawness that other marques lack. I've ridden an older Speed Triple and it didn't really do a lot other than feel heavy to me.

The reviews I've seen or read of the Katana say it's got 'attitude' for what it's worth. It's not something that is easy to quantify.

Also when I say the rear shock is not fantastic, you need to bear in mind two things. I'm used to the Nitron on my VFR, and this bike has done 20,000 miles.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 17 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:


The reviews I've seen or read of the Katana say it's got 'attitude' for what it's worth. It's not something that is easy to quantify.


Yes, similar to saying a bike has 'character', which could be either a good or a bad thing Laughing
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
I can't honestly see an adventure bike being much more comfortable than the GSX-S. They are dynamically worse with less power and often more weight too.

I think it's basically an excuse to not have the latest fast sportsbike. "I don't want a sports I want an *adventure* bike!" is code for "I can't handle 200bhp". But instead of admitting that and buying a sports tourer, they do the Charley Boorman fantasy. It's quite sad in a way.


I have an "adventure" bike (VFR800X, so just styled like one rather than off-road capable) but didn't purposely home in on the adventure class. In fact, I sat on the normal VFR first but just found it too uncomfortable - I didn't like being crouched over the tank. On mine, I like the weather protection and the relaxed upright posture - that's why I bought it. I did look at "big" tourers (Pans, RTs etc.) which also have the combination of weather protection and posture, but (for me at least) I thought they were just too big and felt almost like you were in a 1 person car than a bike.
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lilredmachine
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The street triple essentially rendered the speed triple obsolete when it came out. Nigh on the same thing but an insane amount lighter and with not a great amount less horses in the real world.

Problem with the GSX-S and the Z1000SX and the like is that they are pretty dog slow for anyone who's had anything whoopy. Why they can't just use the ZX-10/GSXR motor in these as is rather than letting 50hp go walkabouts in anyone's guess.

The japanese litre naked bike class hasn't really moved on it years. The MT-10 for example isn't really accounting for a great amount of progress in terms of engine tech over the old FZ-1, apart from the funny crank. Get both on the Dyno and there's a gnats cock in it between the two stock. The reason the MT-10 'feels' fast is because it's pretty much an R1 frame with a compromised riding position and high bars on it. This makes it Wheely everywhere. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually make it fast, which is why even the (NEARLY 15K) SP version is only a couple of tenths faster than a bloody Street Triple in performance bikes hot lap standings.

I rode a tuned (pc5, Yoshi's + Dyno time) 2016 Z1000SX to MOT for my mate as he ran out of time to do it himself and it was a bit of snoozefest. My GSX 6/12 would have easily had to about 120. It had no top end, just felt like it was powered by a noisy electric motor.

That's why no one buys stuff like this. And why people go for silly adventure bikes when they get old as they don't pretend to be fast when they aren't.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
lilredmachine wrote:


The japanese litre naked bike class hasn't really moved on it years.


This is largely why I have settled on my old FZS1000. It seems to me to be about the pinnacle of the non-sports litre 4. Anything that came out after seems only to have pared away some of the attributes that make it a good bike. And with mine, I've done the mods that tidy up any loose ends it may have had. I still don't think there is a better alternative, and the only reason to get something newer would be if I had to go into any low emissions zones.

Talking of which, I know you, MarJay, had to take this into account. But what bike would you have bought if this wasn't a consideration for you, out of curiosity?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:46 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Talking of which, I know you, MarJay, had to take this into account. But what bike would you have bought if this wasn't a consideration for you, out of curiosity?


Exactly what consideration do you mean? If the ULEZ wasn't an issue I'd probably have just run my VFR into the ground which I know is a bit of a boring answer but it's true.

If full fairing wasn't an issue I might have ended up with an S1000R or similar.

If fuel range wasn't an issue then I'd have either had a Katana or maybe a Tuono V4, but I hear they get through top ends in 10,000 miles... so maybe not.

The GSX-S engine IS a GSXR engine. It's also been continually rumoured that it's true top end power is a lot more than the claimed 149bhp quoted - supposedly it's good for 160bhp according to some drunk Japanese engineers on the launch. That said, I've not seen any dyno charts that go that high.

People liked the Bandit and it used a detuned GSXR1100 engine. This bike isn't even the modern equivalent of that because it has the high quality forks and traction control etc.

I don't honestly believe people need more than 150bhp on the road. I don't think anyone needs much more than about 110bhp if I'm honest. Even so, I'll concede the GSX-S only feels a mite quicker than my Street Triple, but it does have another load of kilos to lug about. And I haven't really had much of a chance to whang open the throttle to the stop and let the engine get to the redline... so maybe I'm just grannying it a bit?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:49 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
lilredmachine wrote:
That's why no one buys stuff like this. And why people go for silly adventure bikes when they get old as they don't pretend to be fast when they aren't.


The Z1000SX is Kawasaki's biggest selling 'big' bike in the UK for the last two years running, so people do buy them.

The GSX-S does feel faster than the Z that I rode. That felt like a big scooter. The GSX-S feels more like my Street Triple but a bit wider.

I also found this:

https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/080216-2016-Naked-Sports-Shootout-hp-dyno-chart.jpg

It's for the naked bikes, and the Tuono is a good datum (listed at 170bhp by Aprilia) but the Suzook is a close second.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 18 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Talking of which, I know you, MarJay, had to take this into account. But what bike would you have bought if this wasn't a consideration for you, out of curiosity?


Exactly what consideration do you mean? If the ULEZ wasn't an issue I'd probably have just run my VFR into the ground which I know is a bit of a boring answer but it's true.

If full fairing wasn't an issue I might have ended up with an S1000R or similar.

If fuel range wasn't an issue then I'd have either had a Katana or maybe a Tuono V4, but I hear they get through top ends in 10,000 miles... so maybe not.


Apart from your VFR, which doesn't count as you've already got it (or had), it seems you do think that newer bikes have something to offer over older, simpler fare? Assuming you could take mileage and condition out of the equation?
Don't think I'd be looking at a Tuono for commuting either - they seem to me to be bikes strictly for fun.

MarJay wrote:
I don't honestly believe people need more than 150bhp on the road. I don't think anyone needs much more than about 110bhp if I'm honest. Even so, I'll concede the GSX-S only feels a mite quicker than my Street Triple, but it does have another load of kilos to lug about. And I haven't really had much of a chance to whang open the throttle to the stop and let the engine get to the redline... so maybe I'm just grannying it a bit?


No, people don't need more than 150bhp, but bikes are not all about "need", are they?
Mine is producing a little shy of 140 at the rear wheel, and I find it plenty. Tbh, standard it was enough, but the Ivan's mod has made it a little more...interesting.
A bit more weight isn't always a bad thing on a road bike, I think. The Street Triple sometimes felt a bit flighty on a bumpy road, whereas my Fazer isn't, er, fazed by it Smile
I also found myself being lazy when I first had my ST, due to the good lower end pull for a middleweight. That came from owning the thou, but I soon figured out how the ST should be ridden Twisted Evil
Which was just as well, because now owning the two together made more sense.
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