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So, who's wearing a mask ?

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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
What's the big deal about wearing a mask?

Is it just vanity or do people actually believe the nonsense about oxygen being blocked?


In extreme cases, a mask without the exhale valve could cause carbon dioxide poisoning (headache, fatigue, dizziness) and acidosis in the long run.

Do I wear a mask? Yes, I do, as the Czech gov. made it mandatory again. This time only in the public transportation and publicly accessible buildings. Also, social distancing is back on and they banned all the exhale valve equiped masks from hospitals and other such places, for a very obvious reason. These days, you need at least FFP2 class mask to visit a hospital (treatment, visitation hours).

Are there any Covid19 positive BCF members? Thinking
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
In extreme cases, a mask without the exhale valve could cause carbon dioxide poisoning (headache, fatigue, dizziness) and acidosis in the long run.

How, exactly?

By the way, the mask is to protect other people (cf. use in operating theatres), not the wearer, although the wearer will ofc be protected if others wear masks). A mask with a valve is much worse than useless from this perspective.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
In extreme cases, a mask without the exhale valve could cause carbon dioxide poisoning (headache, fatigue, dizziness) and acidosis in the long run.

How, exactly?


The mask limits your ability to expel the CO2 and to inhale the O2 that you need for your brain to function properly. Such mask works effectively like an EGR valve in your car, recirculation some of the exhaust gasses. If you do this for long enough, the O2 level in your blood will drop and you will experience headache, fatigue, dizziness... Like being oxygen deprived.

Then, your lungs help to keep the pH of your body in balance, simply by exhaling the ''used'' air out and inhaling the ''fresh'' air in. When you wear a mask, you recycle a lot of this air, meaning the capability of your lungs to keep up regulating the pH of your body is limited. The other organ that helps with keeping the pH of your body in balance are the kidneys. The ideal state of things would be fully working lungs and kidneys. The mask limits the capabilities of the lungs.

Now you might ask, what about surgeons? They don't wear the mask 7 days a week.
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Last edited by RhynoCZ on 23:38 - 24 Jul 2020; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
So how many otherwise healthy people have died from wearing face masks for this reason?
How long would you have to be wearing one for it to have detrimental effects?

As far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to wear a mask that is completely sealed to the face.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
So how many otherwise healthy people have died from wearing face masks for this reason?


You won't die from that. You will be taking the mask off long before it becomes a serious medical issue. Acidosis isn't life threatening per se, not helpful either though.

However, thinking of it, there were quite a few people that drowned due to CO2 poisoning while wearing one of those full face swimming masks. Some say it was a hoax, though. Thinking
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:44 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
You won't die from that. You will be taking the mask off long before it becomes a serious medical issue.


Ok, so now we've cleared that up, is what you are talking about at all relevant to the requirement to wear face masks in shops etc?
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
You won't die from that. You will be taking the mask off long before it becomes a serious medical issue.


Ok, so now we've cleared that up, is what you are talking about at all relevant to the requirement to wear face masks in shops etc?


Yes, that you might experience CO2 poisoning and acidosis, from wearing the mask for a longer period of time. But as said, unless you are thick, you will take the mask off the moment you experience any issues. Or will you? Low O2 levels in blood sure lead to reduction of decision-making ability. Thinking

EDIT: Wait a minute! Low O2 levels, compromised decision-making ability, ... is this a plan for boosting up sales of otherwise unsellable crap in the shops? Shocked
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 24 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:


Yes, that you might experience CO2 poisoning and acidosis, from wearing the mask for a longer period of time. But as said, unless you are thick, you will take the mask off the moment you experience any issues. Or will you? Low O2 levels in blood sure lead to reduction of decision-making ability. Thinking


So how common is this?
I think you have dug a trench and now feel you must defend your position Laughing
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
The mask limits your ability to expel the CO2 and to inhale the O2 that you need for your brain to function properly. Such mask works effectively like an EGR valve in your car, recirculation some of the exhaust gasses. If you do this for long enough, the O2 level in your blood will drop and you will experience headache, fatigue, dizziness... Like being oxygen deprived
...
Now you might ask, what about surgeons? They don't wear the mask 7 days a week.

But no. When you breathe, your lungs inhale and exhale what is called a "tidal volume" of air. CO2, 02, N2 etc. is intimately mixed with this air. Normal tidal volume is quite small - only about 1/2 a litre. The volume of air contaimned by the mask is a lot smaller.

If your body becomes short of oxygen, i.e. you are using more power for some reason - exercise? - the tidal volume and the rate of breathing increases, without you making any concious effort at all, except in extreme cases when you may be literally gasping for breath.

So, during normal breathing, there's CO2 being transferred in the air of your exhalation, and new air being drawn in. There is some "stagnant" air anyway - the volume of your nasal cavity, or mouth, and larynx, and "air pipes" as doctors explain - and if you need a bit more air, your body will automatically compensate, as described. It will increase the tidal volume.

It will only be in very extreme circumstances that wearing a mask will cause respiratory issues. I would not expect a top-class Olympic athlete, for instance, producing as much power as his body can optimally generate, to want to wear a mask. I would not expect anyone whose respiration is in an appalling state - perhaps lung cancer sufferers, or people with other severe breathing problems, so severe that they cannot function normally at all - to want to wear a mask; indeed neither are they expected to.

However, for you, me, Joe Bloggs, Uncle Tom Cobbely and all, our bodies will make the tiny adjustment needed without our even noticing. Very slightly deeper breaths, very slightly more of them, that's all.

Now, as for "what about surgeons? They don't wear the mask 7 days a week"; well of course they do not. Neither do we. Masks are for use in shops, where we don't spend all our time 7 days a week, hopefully, or other similar places where physical distancing is not practicable or useful.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:

Indeed, they have been used medically, and in operating theatres, for a hundred years of more - to reduce the transmission of germs.


And where they are known to be effective at doing so for about half an hour to an hour, after which point they are saturated full thickness and you may as well not be wearing it for all the good it does.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:26 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I presume then, that, say, a heart surgeon carrying out a lengthy multi-hour operation changes his mask every half to one hour?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

Indeed, they have been used medically, and in operating theatres, for a hundred years of more - to reduce the transmission of germs.

And where they are known to be effective at doing so for about half an hour to an hour, after which point they are saturated full thickness and you may as well not be wearing it for all the good it does.

Perhaps you can provide a link to an authoritative evidence-based study of some sort which confirms those things, as well as indicate their relevance to shopping and any control of this virus?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:18 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:

Perhaps you can provide a link to an authoritative evidence-based study of some sort which confirms those things, as well as indicate their relevance to shopping and any control of this virus?


You brought up their use in surgery so don't ask me to explain how it's relevant to the current discussion. My point is that their use in surgery is problematic and their usefulness is specific, narrow and short lived. I was out on the timings. 2 hours and they are useless.

Here is the citation you requested. There are many but this seems high powered and reputable.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi9383jjufqAhVyqnEKHbtoDGsQFjAKegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ijic.info%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F10788%2F7862%2F&usg=AOvVaw0B4OLeE_vEwYZ61i_Jvjp1

EDIT: Although I would say it's probably not entirely wrong to extrapolate from these findings. Surgical research is mostly to do with bacterial load. I'd suggest due to simple physics that all the issues the study highlights are even worse with respect to their permeability to much smaller virus particles.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
i wore one in Tesco express yesterday. Th security guards were stopping people without masks which surprised me as I thought they weren't going to do that.

Anyway, I'm a good boy and expect my Blue Peter badge shortly.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
When I went to out to J&S Accessories I totally forgot about the mask thing. Luckily the guys in the shop let me off by just allowing me to keep the helmet on.
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martin734
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 25 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
At least this chap hasn't forgot his mask, not sure that is quite how it is supposed to be worn though and a transparent on would have been interesting.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/07/24/22/31166288-8556949-image-m-36_1595627399556.jpg
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 10:29 - 26 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I’ve just bought my face mask and will be wearing it to go shopping Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 26 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hold up...

"Carbon Dioxide Poisoning" WTF is that? I've heard of Carbon Monoxide poisoning Rolling Eyes
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:25 - 26 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Hold up...

"Carbon Dioxide Poisoning" WTF is that? I've heard of Carbon Monoxide poisoning Rolling Eyes


Breathe in 15% carbon dioxide and see how long you remain concious/alive. It's how pigs are slaughtered in abbatoirs.
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Cookiemonster...
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PostPosted: 03:55 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
Hold up...

"Carbon Dioxide Poisoning" WTF is that? I've heard of Carbon Monoxide poisoning Rolling Eyes


Breathe in 15% carbon dioxide and see how long you remain concious/alive. It's how pigs are slaughtered in abbatoirs.


Very unpleasant way to die from what I've heard compared to CO. I wonder why they don't just use CO for pigs? With CO when there's enough you just pass out and die, with CO2 there is a painful feeling of not being able to breathe, struggle, and takes longer too...
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I do think a mask is better than nothing judging by the inability of the average shopper to respect the social distancing guidance.

It was the clamour to criticise the government's approach which made them change their advice, not the science. Once the government u-turns, those same critics argue the other way, or find a new complaint. As The Artist said, it's all politics.




Indeed, it's just politics, Boris has mandated face covering wearing because when there is another wave the left wing will slate him if he hadn't brought this in.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, but is it poisoning per se?

wikipedia wrote:
In biology, poisons are substances that cause death, injury or harm to organs, usually by chemical reactions or other activity on the molecular scales, when an organism absorbs a sufficient quantity.


Surely the ill effects are due to a lack of uptake of oxygen and/or failure to expel enough CO2?

The reason I'm being so pedantic is because the fruit cakes in America quite often conflate CO poisoning with increased CO2. Now, if they were to say something like "masks reduce the partial pressure of O2 while increasing the partial pressure of CO2" I'd be a lot more interested.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:19 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cookiemonster14 wrote:


Very unpleasant way to die from what I've heard compared to CO. I wonder why they don't just use CO for pigs? With CO when there's enough you just pass out and die, with CO2 there is a painful feeling of not being able to breathe, struggle, and takes longer too...


At very high concentrations CO2 is anaesthetic, you don't get the asphyxiation symptoms, you just pass out.

This is just in the interests of pedancy because a facemask couldn't generate anywhere near that sort of concentration but CO2 is most definately a poison.

Most relevant if people are going to work in seldom used enclosed spaces, they need to be ventilated and if someone collapses, you do NOT go in there to get them out unless you have BA or have thoughly ventilated it. There have been cases of three or four dead bodies lying before someone twigged, each of which went in to get the previous one. One lungful and you're out.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Beer cellars being particularly dangerous. Pressurised canisters of CO2 possibly leaking and with it being slightly heavier than oxygen it all "pools" in the lowest area Shocked
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 27 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Been using a mask, yesterday though I tried a Bandana and other than looking like a lost bank robber it was much more comfortable for the extended period I had to wear it.
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