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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 12:28 - 17 Sep 2020  Post subject: |
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| Zen Dog wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | But can you answer my question? |
If we signed a deal that says they can, yes. |
We must disagree on that one.
| Quote: | Do you think the EU should be able to ban goods from the UK mainland and NI from going to Ireland, bearing in mind we are no longer in the EU? Or charge tariffs for the privilege of doing so? |
Yes.
Next question for you.
Do you think the EU doesn't break international law? Do you think , in fact, that the EU is not in contravention of any international law right now, knowingly and deliberately?
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Zen Dog
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:23 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| Zen Dog wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | We must disagree on that one. |
So you wouldn't be bawwing at all if the EU were the ones changing the deal after signing it? |
I am saying the EU cannot be allowed to interfere with the movement of goods and services, support of industries and businesses, and the right to internal tariff-free trading within the UK.
| Quote: |
Oh good. So given the GFA, if we go full flounce, how are they going to do that? |
Ask them.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Do you think the EU doesn't break international law? |
They probably are. But it's not their reputation for fair dealing I care about. |
And we have been negotiating for a trade deal thinking we were negotiating for a trade deal. So if both sides are acting in bad faith, what now?
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| Zen Dog |
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Zen Dog
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| Posted: 13:37 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | I am saying the EU cannot be allowed to interfere with the movement of goods and services, support of industries and businesses, and the right to internal tariff-free trading within the UK. |
But can you answer my question?
| chickenstrip wrote: | Ask them. |
I don't need to. They put their solution in the WA. The one we signed and agreed to.
| chickenstrip wrote: | And we have been negotiating for a trade deal thinking we were negotiating for a trade deal. So if both sides are acting in bad faith, what now? |
No deal? We've been threatening it since the start, and the EU called us on it before we even sat down at the table. They're ready. We've had plenty of time to prepare. It's going to be absolutely fine we've been told over and over, so we should just do it. I'm fed up of hearing the Brexiteers whine and play victim.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 14:18 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| Zen Dog wrote: |
But can you answer my question? |
If it ran against my principles I'd contest them. That's what is happening. We have some important different principles to the EU, which is why people voted to leave, and we have left.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Ask them. |
I don't need to. They put their solution in the WA. The one we signed and agreed to. |
And I and others disagree about how the EU has threatened to use it, so it will be contested.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | And we have been negotiating for a trade deal thinking we were negotiating for a trade deal. So if both sides are acting in bad faith, what now? |
No deal? We've been threatening it since the start, and the EU called us on it before we even sat down at the table. They're ready. We've had plenty of time to prepare. It's going to be absolutely fine we've been told over and over, so we should just do it. I'm fed up of hearing the Brexiteers whine and play victim. |
I agree. We should go WTO. Then we can see if a straight trade deal with the EU can be negotiated or not, as we have done with Japan, and are doing with other countries.
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Zen Dog
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:44 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| Zen Dog wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | If it ran against my principles I'd contest them. |
Struggling to extract an answer out of that response. |
That's a pity 
| Quote: | What is "them"? Your principles? The EU? Is "it" the deal? Or the act of them changing it? Is contesting having a paddy or not? |
It seems you may never know
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Zen Dog
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| Posted: 15:52 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 18:30 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Have to agree with Zen Dog here.
This forum usually takes the opinion that people should make their bed and sleep in it. Usually in threads relating to car insurance, speeding tickets and ebay woes. "Buy beware".
Oh but now that it's Brexit, we're allowed to backpedal and scrap everything we signed ourselves up for  .
Sure, it's probably for the best, but it once again is a big fat flashing sign pointing to the utter ineptitude of our current government. For deals that will literally effect the entire fucking country for generations, you would expect those at the negotiating table to read and understand every last word of the stuff they're signing. The mind boggles. They're clueless, like a high school politics society or something, it's all a big game. |
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Ribenapigeon
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| Posted: 18:59 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | Have to agree with Zen Dog here.
This forum usually takes the opinion that people should make their bed and sleep in it. Usually in threads relating to car insurance, speeding tickets and ebay woes. "Buy beware".
Oh but now that it's Brexit, we're allowed to backpedal and scrap everything we signed ourselves up for .
Sure, it's probably for the best, but it once again is a big fat flashing sign pointing to the utter ineptitude of our current government. For deals that will literally effect the entire fucking country for generations, you would expect those at the negotiating table to read and understand every last word of the stuff they're signing. The mind boggles. They're clueless, like a high school politics society or something, it's all a big game. |
This;
but as long as some rich posh bloke with a fetish for dressing up as Winston Churchill does a two fingers up routine to the EU then everything is fine. I do think the northern Ireland bit of the agreement is a pigs ear though and garanteed to be a cause of multi-s#ite issues for decades to come, but then hasn't the wretched place always been. |
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Riejufixing
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Posted: 18:59 - 17 Sep 2020  Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | Oh but now that it's Brexit, we're allowed to backpedal and scrap everything we signed ourselves up for . |
But that is not what is proposed. It in only proposed that if one part of the agreement, due to unforseen circumstances, is used against us, we over-ride it.
Perhaps if there was some thing in the agreement that woud very much against the eu, then they should stick to it, despite damage done to them? You bet they would not. The same as for any other agreement, circumstances alter cases.
| Lord Percy wrote: | This forum usually takes the opinion that people should make their bed and sleep in it. Usually in threads relating to car insurance, speeding tickets and ebay woes. "Buy beware". |
I don't think the complexities of this treaty are in any way comparable to any of thouse things. Neither the eu or anyone else (recently the USA among others) regarding treaties "make their bed and sleep in it" (sic) and certainly do not hold with "buy beware" (sic). If they're in a treaty which goes against them, they will withdraw from it, as is the right of any sovereign nation. Surely you don't *really* think people would go along with whatever, anyway, were their countris damaged? |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 19:23 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: |
This forum usually takes the opinion that people should make their bed and sleep in it. Usually in threads relating to car insurance, speeding tickets and ebay woes. "Buy beware".
Oh but now that it's Brexit, we're allowed to backpedal and scrap everything we signed ourselves up for . |
Ah, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of a BCF position which I'm required to adhere to
Perhaps as BCF Supreme Leader, Ste could explain to me.
Anyway, sounds like the arguments against the IMB are getting desperately thin to me. "Made your bed, lie in it!"
One should always oppose bad laws and those who would defend them, even if their defence is weak, and the WA is undoubtedly very bad law.
I really can't believe that someone who is British would argue for retaining a law that was harmful to their own country. Please explain to me the logic behind that? Are you really saying that even though we have left the EU, we should still be subject to all their whims and desires, even if that meant, for e.g., poverty for our farmers? The mind boggles. I would happily rip up the WA. Remember, as we are constantly being reminded by Remainers, we have already sunk to the lowest of the low in international eyes by leaving the EU. How could we possibly ever be less trusted anyway? We have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
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| Polarbear |
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Polarbear
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Posted: 20:50 - 17 Sep 2020  Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: |
Ah, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of a BCF position which I'm required to adhere to
Perhaps as BCF Supreme Leader, Ste could explain to me.
Anyway, sounds like the arguments against the IMB are getting desperately thin to me. "Made your bed, lie in it!"
One should always oppose bad laws and those who would defend them, even if their defence is weak, and the WA is undoubtedly very bad law.
I really can't believe that someone who is British would argue for retaining a law that was harmful to their own country. Please explain to me the logic behind that? Are you really saying that even though we have left the EU, we should still be subject to all their whims and desires, even if that meant, for e.g., poverty for our farmers? The mind boggles. I would happily rip up the WA. Remember, as we are constantly being reminded by Remainers, we have already sunk to the lowest of the low in international eyes by leaving the EU. How could we possibly ever be less trusted anyway? We have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. |
Totally agree. I'm actually pleased we are doing what we want to do and not what everyone else tells us to.
I really do not give a rats arse about the EU which is pretty well what they feel about us.
It's against international law  . Interfering with the internal politics of a sovereign state is against international law yet it goes on all the time. Iraq, Libya, Ukraine. If you have the bollocks it means nothing does it Mr. Putin.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 22:15 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Frankly, we have bred a country of weaklings who have been sucking on their EU mother's tit for too long, and are frightened of their own shadows. But we're out of the EU now, so we must learn to stand up and make our own way in the world. Weaklings get bullied, and if they don't stake out their territory and defend it, sometimes they get killed - that's nature. We have to lose this lefty liberal "I want everything done for me" mentality. We are not, as Reijufixing has pointed out, going to be returning to the EU anytime soon. That's the reality.
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 22:55 - 17 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Anyone looked at today's policy paper?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-statement-on-notwithstanding-clauses/government-statement-on-notwithstanding-clauses
Policy paper
Government statement on notwithstanding clauses
Published 17 September 2020
HMG will ask Parliament to support the use of the provisions in Clauses 42, 43 and 45 of the UKIM Bill, and any similar subsequent provisions, only in the case of, in our view, the EU being engaged in a material breach of its duties of good faith or other obligations, and thereby undermining the fundamental purpose of the Northern Ireland Protocol. Examples of such behaviour would include:
a. insistence that GB-NI tariffs and related provision such as import VAT should be charged in ways that are not related to the real risk of goods entering the EU single market;
b. such insistence under (a.) leading to a failure to reach agreement in the Joint Committee, with the result that the default provisions on tariffs between GB and NI apply;
c. insistence on paperwork requirements (export declarations) for NI goods going to GB, thereby compromising the principle of “unfettered access” in Article 6 of the Protocol;
d. insistence that the EU’s state aid provisions should apply in GB in circumstances when there is no link or only a trivial one to commercial operations taking place in NI; and
e. refusal to grant 3rd country listing to UK agricultural goods for manifestly unreasonable or poorly justified reasons.
HMG confirms that in parallel with the use of these provisions it would always activate appropriate formal dispute settlement mechanisms with the aim of finding a solution through this route.
Further measures will be set out in the Finance Bill, relating to tariffs on GB-NI movements, including the same Parliamentary process that the Government has committed to for the UKIM Bill.
It seems eminently reasonable, and quite justified. |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 00:01 - 18 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Can't be right Surely legislation is meant to be dense and impenetrable, not something mere proles could understand.
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 00:29 - 18 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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It's a policy paper, not legislation, but describes what the intent is. The actual legislation will be just what you want it to be, after it's been through all stages in both Houses!  |
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bhinso
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| Posted: 22:30 - 18 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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I have to cast my lot in with those saying us breaking international law is wrong.
Of course it's wrong that the EU should be sh1tting all over any exports/imports between UK and NI - both countries are out of the EU.
But someone should have read this in the small print. They can't use Covid as an excuse for incompetency this time, as it happened before then. As for "The EU verbally implied they wouldn't enact it", just Brexit LOL.
It's time David Milliband came back from playing with his banana and saved the country  |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 22:56 - 18 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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The whole "breach of international law!" argument is one of political convenience for those making it, and very disingenuous. A storm in a teacup, especially given how mild a breach of "international law" it would be, and in what sensible circumstances it would be to use it, if we were to use it.
But we must have people with their histrionics, mustn't we? The age we live in it seems.
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Zen Dog
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| Posted: 12:35 - 21 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:08 - 21 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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He says, posting three lol emoticons 
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 14:06 - 21 Sep 2020 Post subject: |
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Got anything more to say on the topic of the thread though?
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 3 years, 209 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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