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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Yes, Trump's appeal on the original verdict was overturned. Just to appease the news cynics amongst us, here's the reuters version. Laughing

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-lawsuit-pennsylvania/us-federal-appeals-court-rejects-trump-campaigns-pennsylvania-election-case-idUKKBN2872BA

The federal court of appeal judges were three Republicans, one appointed by Trump and two by Dubya.

Enjoy your beer. I'm getting myself a short of something in a minute Smile Thumbs Up


Odd, doesn't mention Act 77 anywhere in that article and one could hardly call Reuters low-brow Thinking Not that I think it matters too much as throwing 20 votes out of the electoral college is not a death blow.

Anyhoo, winning States, winning the popular vote? That's so 2016, baby Smile This time round it's geography. Apparently Biden managed to secure the largest number of votes in history while at the same having the smallest land coverage: only 17% of the area of the US voted for him.

Errr....

Translation: he got almost all his votes in the cities and towns and nothing in the countryside.

Translation for Rebel: he found it easier to stuff the ballot box in the cities and towns negating the need trek out to the sticks Wink

BTW moved onto some cider I found in the fridge. In my experience the first beer should be the quality stuff and then move onto any old shite once the taste buds start dying off Wasted
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:25 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

No it isn't. Where did you check the citations used?

And you know what I'm going to say if you tell me - just the same thing you say about any source I use Laughing

And I still think this election was about as clean as a mud pie Laughing


It is. You look at the citations given in the articles and you assess them much the same as you'd assess any information.


And what does an assessment lead to? An opinion, nothing more.

Quote:
Actually, I've never criticised your sources intentionally - poking fun at them isn't the same thing at all. You've got a reasonably balanced view even if it's to the right of mine. Your devil's advocate position is always entertaining and often challenging.


Playing devil's advocate to your own position helps you to understand things more clearly. It's an important tool. But I am unable to take the position of some of the anti-Trumpers, except to the extent that he does not make for a great president from the point of view of character. The rest seems to me like pure hysteria, as is so rife on social media about that and anything else. Social media seems to poison all minds.

Quote:
The politics and the mudslinging are as clean as a mud pie. The processes of voting and tallying the votes is governed by law as is ours and is overall fair and straightforward. There will always be attempts to defraud the system but they'll normally be caught during validation. The system itself, like ours, is pretty sound.


Tbh, neither you nor I can declare that the election process was fair and straightforward. Nor can we declare that it was not. We were not there to see anything for ourselves. All we can do is rely on 2nd hand reports and assessments. Even a court decision cannot be taken as absolute proof one way or another, since we all know that miscarriages of justice happen. The problem is, no one can say they have no biases if they have any politics at all. As I said before, politics is all about bias. And the internet is a mine of misinformation, perhaps surrounding the odd gem of fact. But what is a political fact anyway? People talk of political "science" as a subject. I hate that term, and rail against it. I have a bit of fun here, but sometimes I think we are all just pissing in the wind, and for myself, I just wish I had something better to do Sad

My personal view, sad as it may be, is that America is in a no-win situation.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:


Odd, doesn't mention Act 77 anywhere in that article and one could hardly call Reuters low-brow Thinking Not that I think it matters too much as throwing 20 votes out of the electoral college is not a death blow.

Anyhoo, winning States, winning the popular vote? That's so 2016, baby Smile This time round it's geography. Apparently Biden managed to secure the largest number of votes in history while at the same having the smallest land coverage: only 17% of the area of the US voted for him.

Errr....

Translation: he got almost all his votes in the cities and towns and nothing in the countryside.

Translation for Rebel: he found it easier to stuff the ballot box in the cities and towns negating the need trek out to the sticks Wink

BTW moved onto some cider I found in the fridge. In my experience the first beer should be the quality stuff and then move onto any old shite once the taste buds start dying off Wasted


Trump has lost the election, he knows it but unsurprisingly is unable to swallow his overentitled pride and admit it although he's preparing the ground by starting to admit it's possibility. In a couple of weeks time it'll be confirmed by the electoral college. The legal challenges from Trump's side are spurious, baseless and some might say vexatious - at best they're a delaying tactic but that's all.

The city/rural vote distribution is normal for any conservative/liberal type election. Thumbs Up

I do like a decent glass of cider. We've opened a bottle of a local Gin I bought last year it's disappointingly rough drunk neat but a splash of tonic makes it quite decent. Wasted Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:

Trump has lost the election, he knows it but unsurprisingly is unable to swallow his overentitled pride and admit it although he's preparing the ground by starting to admit it's possibility. In a couple of weeks time it'll be confirmed by the electoral college. The legal challenges from Trump's side are spurious, baseless and some might say vexatious - at best they're a delaying tactic but that's all.


I agree with that up until the bit about the legal challenges. Perceptions are important, and if there are doubts, especially when they are held by such a large part of the population, the legal process must be allowed to proceed. There will be a final decision at the end, and people will have to accept it, whatever it is. It's that or total breakdown of civil society. Which I'm not convinced isn't coming America's way anyway.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
If nothing else I'm hoping the message "must do better" sinks in across the various States. Elections should be run in a transparent way with very definite rules if ppl are to respect the results and it's apparent that's not been the case for quite some time over there.

Rather than Blue vs Red one might argue the divide is along the Constitution. "Covid doesn't respect the Constitution" doesn't sound like a solid legal argument to me Thinking

Frankly the whole "send us electors but decide yourself [on a state by state basis] how they vote" stinks. Most states go for popular pleb vote = block vote but not all Confused
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 28 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


And what does an assessment lead to? An opinion, nothing more.


It leads to an opinion you've put some thought into rather than one based on blind dogma. It's a lot more likely to be reasonably balanced.

chickenstrip wrote:
Playing devil's advocate to your own position helps you to understand things more clearly. It's an important tool. But I am unable to take the position of some of the anti-Trumpers, except to the extent that he does not make for a great president from the point of view of character. The rest seems to me like pure hysteria, as is so rife on social media about that and anything else. Social media seems to poison all minds.


I agree. Call it devil's advocate, critical thinking, reflective thinking or whatever the latest buzzwords are, it's a powerful tool.

I don't like Trump. I don't like the way he plays the population against each other, stirs unrest and causes division and hatred. I don't like the way he's embraced the religious right as a tool and is dismissive of science. As a human being he's basically a spoiled brat of a man that's far too used to getting his own way. I'm not hysterical about it and have largely ignored his outpourings. I'm just glad to see him go and hope that the country can reunite without rancour. Unlikely, but it's still a hope.

Social media can be a poisonous environment right enough and both the extreme right and left exploit that.

chickenstrip wrote:
Tbh, neither you nor I can declare that the election process was fair and straightforward. Nor can we declare that it was not. We were not there to see anything for ourselves. All we can do is rely on 2nd hand reports and assessments. Even a court decision cannot be taken as absolute proof one way or another, since we all know that miscarriages of justice happen. The problem is, no one can say they have no biases if they have any politics at all. As I said before, politics is all about bias. And the internet is a mine of misinformation, perhaps surrounding the odd gem of fact. But what is a political fact anyway? People talk of political "science" as a subject. I hate that term, and rail against it. I have a bit of fun here, but sometimes I think we are all just pissing in the wind, and for myself, I just wish I had something better to do Sad

My personal view, sad as it may be, is that America is in a no-win situation.


My statements on election processes are based on first hand experience and knowledge (in the UK obviously). It's a rigorous and highly controlled process.

Of course you're going to have political bias, but it's also possible to put it aside and act professionally. The legal system is supposed to do this and yes, sometimes it fails.

The Internet is a massively useful information resource if it's used wisely. The problem is that it's too easy to manipulate which leads to misinformation and to a degree indoctrination into ideologies. This is where conspiracy theorists and other forms of extremism appear.

I also dislike the term 'political science' almost as much as I dislike 'professional' politicians.

As for pissing in the wind, yes we probably are but in order to maintain sanity you have to pick your battles carefully and have some fun along the way Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


I don't like Trump.


Really? Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:48 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


I don't like Trump.


Really? Laughing


Hadn't you realised? Razz
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:49 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had you down as his number one fan Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:50 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well ok...maybe second to Suntan Sid Razz
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
For the less technically minded the source is:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/

Nope, doesn't look like a partisan site at all Wink

I've said it before: Trump didn't just do well in the election he got enough votes to beat every candidate in history... except Biden Thinking

Why confuse things with tedious graphs when the above information is noteworthy enough?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 13:27 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh it's just Rebel. He's desperate for people to accept his "alternative facts" (lies) based conspiracy theory and doesn't know when to give up the struggle. Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:46 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh dear, OANN again. Laughing

"OAN is known for its pro-Trump content, promotion of conspiracy theories, and criticisms of the mainstream media.[25] OANN has described itself as one of the "greatest supporters" of Trump.[28]

The channel is prominent for promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories.[40] On November 24, 2020, YouTube suspended and demonetized OANN's channel for one week as a first strike under its three-strike community guideline violation policy, for falsely claiming a COVID-19 cure.[41]"

Such a reliable source Laughing

Although to be fair, Trump did win Ohio - not that it did him any good in the long run. Razz
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:31 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
With all due respect, a lot of Rebel's info is true despite the dubious sources. All the data does point to this being, how shall we put it, an anomalous election.

The question is what then? It's implied that fraud must be afoot but at this point it's just opinion. Until something solid is proved in court it's effectively hearsay even if true. And here's the big mistake...

The courts are about justice not truth. Let's assume Biden personally directed ballot stuffing and definitive evidence is waved under a judge's nose. He/she won't just consider the veracity of the evidence but also would it be in the public interest to listen to the case. One could easily see the country tear itself apart at this point if Trump stays in office.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
The courts will consider if any laws have been broken.

Anomalies in the election were Trump's extreme polarising influence prompting a large turnout, and the Covid emergency prompting increased postal voting. There seems to be little else procedurally different to the previous election.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
There seems to be little else procedurally different to the previous election.


You don't feel there to be anything odd that the candidate that gained the most votes in history also did the least amount of campaigning? (In as far as "on the road" work.) Nothing anomalous about him getting close to a billion dollars in campaign money? Outpacing Trump by at least a factor of three. If one were to look at Return on Investment - how much it cost to buy a vote if you like - Biden did atrociously.

As to procedure it's not disputed that that was thrown out the window in some states to make mail-in voting a bit easier. That being said playing fast and loose with the Constitution is not the same as illegal.

Even laughing off the fraud claims there's so many things about this election that are unprecedented. More that can just be explained by Covid, IMHO.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
With all due respect, a lot of Rebel's info is true despite the dubious sources. All the data does point to this being, how shall we put it, an anomalous election.


Actually the amount that's true is miniscule compared with the large amounts of misinformation backed by highly dubious sources he posts.

The data points to two things. 1. A larger than normal turnout which is largely due to Trump being a hugely divisive idiot. 2. A larger number of postal votes - the Democrats use the postal ballot more than the Republicans and always have done. The larger turnout plus the pandemic have increased the number. Nothing out of order here and all to be expected.

All of the cries of fraud have been vexatious and are being dismissed by the courts (remember that there are Trump appointees behind the dismissals).

Easy-X wrote:
The question is what then? It's implied that fraud must be afoot but at this point it's just opinion. Until something solid is proved in court it's effectively hearsay even if true. And here's the big mistake...

The courts are about justice not truth. Let's assume Biden personally directed ballot stuffing and definitive evidence is waved under a judge's nose. He/she won't just consider the veracity of the evidence but also would it be in the public interest to listen to the case. One could easily see the country tear itself apart at this point if Trump stays in office.


The courts are about getting at the truth and then delivering justice based on the truth and the simple fact is that there has been no evidence whatsoever produced by the Trump legal teams to support his claims of fraud.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if there is any real evidence either. Their leadership style of calling truth lies and lies truth repeatedly isn't working for them this time.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 18:51 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
You don't feel there to be anything odd that the candidate that gained the most votes in history also did the least amount of campaigning? (In as far as "on the road" work.) Nothing anomalous about him getting close to a billion dollars in campaign money? Outpacing Trump by at least a factor of three. If one were to look at Return on Investment - how much it cost to buy a vote if you like - Biden did atrociously.

As to procedure it's not disputed that that was thrown out the window in some states to make mail-in voting a bit easier. That being said playing fast and loose with the Constitution is not the same as illegal.

Even laughing off the fraud claims there's so many things about this election that are unprecedented. More that can just be explained by Covid, IMHO.


This is the nature of politics. Trump handled the pandemic appallingly, his nonsensical pronuncements and lack of direct leadership on it caused a lot of needless deaths and people are sick of it. I'm frankly not in the least surprised that Biden attracted the number of votes he did - you only have to look at the turnout numbers to see something major was going to happen.

Look at the actual published facts from reputable sources. There's nothing unusual here apart from the turnout size.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 29 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
You don't feel there to be anything odd that the candidate that gained the most votes in history also did the least amount of campaigning? (In as far as "on the road" work.)

Even if you suppose candidates need to hit the road in this interconnected world and personal appearances are all golden (which Trump's weren't), the candidate who travelled the least compensated by spending more on other media campaigns.

Easy-X wrote:
Nothing anomalous about him getting close to a billion dollars in campaign money? Outpacing Trump by at least a factor of three.

I think you mean a third. Trump's campaign spending was 70% of Biden's.

Easy-X wrote:
If one were to look at Return on Investment - how much it cost to buy a vote if you like - Biden did atrociously.

In 2016 Hillary Clinton spent more than 40% more than Trump, and lost. Turns out you don't necessarily buy an election, and this time round the least-favoured candidate (in the end) had the least donor support, which makes some sense.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 02:10 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I think you mean a third. Trump's campaign spending was 70% of Biden's.


I must have been holding one of Rebel's graphs the wrong way round Shifty

Well nothing's gonna convince me that there isn't something odd about this election - chalk it up to lockdown fever - conversely nothing's gonna convince me Trump will hold onto office. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "...ah but losing that court case is part of the plan, lull them into a false sense of security!" FFS Rolling Eyes

I really do hope there's nothing iffy going on. Not for Trump's sake, his ego needs taking down a peg or two* but the tendency is that someone who's pulled a fast one will inevitably not respect the thing they've gained. And the Democrats already have form for treating the plebs like chattel Sad

*hundred, thousand?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 30 Nov 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was this thing on Reddit, half the US population lives in these counties:

https://i.imgur.com/NZ83Wc8.png

And I culled this picture of voting patterns from US Today:

https://i.imgur.com/Ch8XGCW.png
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Islander
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 01 Dec 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's no different to the UK really. The majority of voting citizens live in cities and conurbations and they tend to vote to the left (with some exceptions in upmarket districts) whereas fewer people live in rural areas (obviously) and tend to vote right, again with some exceptions.

OK that's a gross over simplification but you get the general idea. Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 01 Dec 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


OK that's a gross over simplification but you get the general idea. Smile


If it's a gross oversimplification, then the general idea is flawed to begin with, and therefore you would have been better not saying anything Wink Laughing
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