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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:54 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

But the last one was labelled a "once in a generation" event. So there's a while to go before another should be considered, and it is up to the UK government whether or not to grant one even in that time. Scotland is a sovereign part of the UK still.


I suppose that would depend on how much you respect the deomocratic process.

The Scottish electorate have repeatedly returned a majority for what is essentially a one-trick pony political party with one main aim and manifesto. If in the next election, they stand on a platform of having another refferendum within their next term and are elected with a majority. What then?

The affirmation that it is up to the UK government to grant premission to have a referrendum is also an extremely shaky one.

The Scottish government is, in fact, totally free to hold a referrendum on whatever subject it pleases. They just do not have the power to compel Westminster to stand by the result of it.

That said, if a properly run referrendum was carried out and came out in favour of independance and the Scotish government of the day declared independance on that basis, there is a very good chance their declaration would be recognised internationally with or without the agreement of Westminster.

It's one of the reasons the Spanish government sent in the stormtroopers to stamp on heads and destroy ballot boxes during the Catalan referrendum.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 02:16 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


The Scottish government...do not have the power to compel Westminster to stand by the result of [a referendum for independence].


Correct.

Quote:
That said, if a properly run referrendum was carried out and came out in favour of independance and the Scotish government of the day declared independance on that basis, there is a very good chance their declaration would be recognised internationally with or without the agreement of Westminster.


From what do you derive that assumption?

Quote:
It's one of the reasons the Spanish government sent in the stormtroopers to stamp on heads and destroy ballot boxes during the Catalan referrendum.


Did the EU, for e.g., back Catalan independence? Or any other international body?
The problem any nation has with backing the independence of a part of any other nation is that the chickens could come home to roost, and any nation that has a region with its own strong identity is supersensitive of that fact. Such independence will never be granted without a struggle, which in many historic cases has been violent. How far does Scotland wish to take it? I say Scotland, but remember also that many Scots equally fervently believe in the Union, so divisions wouldn't be just across the border, but within Scotland too - within Scottish families even.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very simply it would make Brexit look like a walk in the park.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 14:04 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Try not to take this the wrong way but I see the same sort of "give me freedom or give me death" bollox in Cornwall (but to a much lesser extent.) The difference is I don't see Scots under anywhere near the same hardship as the Cornish, financially or culturally. So whenever Sturgeon makes her pronouncements on independence I always think:

"The laddie doth protest too much!"
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
If the Cornish want independence, all they have to do is cut the ferry chains across the Tamar, and it'll float off into the Atlantic (my old granpaw used to say Smile ...funnily enough, he was Scottish by birth, but you never met a more Cornish Cornishman in my lifetime, pard). And I never heard anyone in Cornwall seriously scream for independence - it always seemed a like a bit of a popular joke.

The thing is, strong regional identity is fine within a nation - it's what makes a nation interesting. It's when governments (or other bodies, especially if unelected) want to impose "one culture fits all" on the whole that problems arise...
I don't see Westminster trying to undermine Scottish culture, nor having any desire to, and we all live with the governments failings. All Scotland will achieve from independence is living with the failings of their own government, which they are already sampling a large dose of. And if they leave the Union, they won't be able to blame it on Westminster anymore.
Maybe we're all just over-politicised.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


Did the EU, for e.g., back Catalan independence? Or any other international body?
The problem any nation has with backing the independence of a part of any other nation is that the chickens could come home to roost, and any nation that has a region with its own strong identity is supersensitive of that fact. Such independence will never be granted without a struggle, which in many historic cases has been violent. How far does Scotland wish to take it? I say Scotland, but remember also that many Scots equally fervently believe in the Union, so divisions wouldn't be just across the border, but within Scotland too - within Scottish families even.


The international community stood back while the Spanish government behaved (and still is behaving) apallingly with regard to Catalonia. They are de-facto keeping political prisoners for "sedition". Other EU countries have effectviely offered them assylum.

Had the referrendum been carried out and voted for independance, it would have been much harder to ignore.

Did you know South Sudan formed as a result of a referrendum?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


The international community stood back while the Spanish government behaved (and still is behaving) apallingly with regard to Catalonia.


Why?

Quote:
Had the referrendum been carried out and voted for independance, it would have been much harder to ignore.


It seems to me the Spanish government wouldn't have changed their minds, and they are sovereign.

Quote:
Did you know South Sudan formed as a result of a referrendum?


Much of Africa was carved up by European nations taking little account of cultural and other local considerations, so hardly surprising when countries adjust themselves when the colonists leave. The UK is a long established nation, and cultural differences between the regions are not suppressed. Scots played a big part in establishing the ties between the regions, and proudly lived under that Union which they played so prominent a part in forging. They not only take part in national government, but also have had great influence on the monarchy, having had people at the very top. The connections are so very much deeper than a recently formed African nation - there is no meaningful comparison. You are grasping at straws with that one.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

Why?


Dunno, maybe because much of the fascist state machiners remains?

Quote:
It seems to me the Spanish government wouldn't have changed their minds, and they are sovereign.


Assuming it is actually up to them by that point.


Quote:
Much of Africa was carved up by European nations taking little account of cultural and other local considerations, so hardly surprising when countries adjust themselves when the colonists leave. The UK is a long established nation, and cultural differences between the regions are not suppressed. Scots played a big part in establishing the ties between the regions, and proudly lived under that Union which they played so prominent a part in forging. They not only take part in national government, but also have had great influence on the monarchy, having had people at the very top. The connections are so very much deeper than a recently formed African nation - there is no meaningful comparison. You are grasping at straws with that one.


I take it you understand how the union came to be? How it was not at the behest of the Scots? It took centuries of repression, occupation, war, political machinations, financial sanctions, trade blockades and embargos and assasination to back the Scots into a corner until there was no other option left. There was vitually no support fot the act of union outside the political classes. "We're bought and sold for English Gold."

I wonder how many Scots today are actually "Proudly part of the union"? I would go with much less than half. I think most Scots think of themselves as part of the UK through a sense of grudging fiscal necessity.

It is also the case that 47 out of the 59 MPs from Scottish constituencies sitting in Westminster are SNP. That's an utterly outrageous and unheard of 80% majority. How high does the bar need to be?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm conflicted: on the one hand I think there's nothing to be gained from Scottish Independence other than handing power to a band of inept racists. On the other hand... I voted for Brexit purely on the basis of "fuck you, Brussels!" so erm, there's that Shifty
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

I take it you understand how the union came to be? How it was not at the behest of the Scots? It took centuries of repression, occupation, war, political machinations, financial sanctions, trade blockades and embargos and assassination to back the Scots into a corner until there was no other option left. There was virtually no support for the act of union outside the political classes. "We're bought and sold for English Gold."


Darien scheme .. folly in extreme .. Scotland's down fall ..
and English coin.. The Equivalent,£398,085 10s sterling most of the sum was used to compensate the investors in the Darien scheme ..
oh and don`t forget the 20,000 was distributed by the Earl of Glasgow, of which 60% went to James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry, the Queen's Commissioner in Parliament. Another negotiator, Argyll was given an English peerage.

English did the buyin but yous were Sold out by your own political elite .lol.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
I'm conflicted: on the one hand I think there's nothing to be gained from Scottish Independence other than handing power to a band of inept racists. On the other hand... I voted for Brexit purely on the basis of "fuck you, Brussels!" so erm, there's that Shifty


not quite .. don`t forget the small islands on the north coast that whish to secede from mainland Scotland.. Shetland and Orkneys ..
Ha ! Ha! Ha ! Ha!
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Islander
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Copycat73 wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
I'm conflicted: on the one hand I think there's nothing to be gained from Scottish Independence other than handing power to a band of inept racists. On the other hand... I voted for Brexit purely on the basis of "fuck you, Brussels!" so erm, there's that Shifty


not quite .. don`t forget the small islands on the north coast that whish to secede from mainland Scotland.. Shetland and Orkneys ..
Ha ! Ha! Ha ! Ha!


Do they? There's an active interest in Scottish independence here but I'm not aware of any desire to go it alone. Orcadians see themselves as Orcadian first and Scottish second and Shetlanders likewise but they still see themselves as Scottish.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:

Do they? There's an active interest in Scottish independence here but I'm not aware of any desire to go it alone. Orcadians see themselves as Orcadian first and Scottish second and Shetlanders likewise but they still see themselves as Scottish.


"Many islanders feel the same way about Edinburgh that some people in Cornwall and Yorkshire – and Edinburgh – feel about London"

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18717880.opinion-mark-smith-reason-shetland-orkney-want-independence-holyrood-power-grab/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1334720/nicola-sturgeon-orkney-independence-referendum-vote-scotland-shetland-islands-snp-scottis

various stories .. yes i know "don`t believe what you read in the papers" ... still a delicious thought .. "It comes after Shetland island councillors voted 18 to two in favour of a motion to formally explore options "for achieving financial and political self-determination".

Financially probably get a much better deal as a Crown dependency than as an outlying Scots. region / backwater .... oh and who could not LOVE the Irony !!!

PS. what flag would yous use .. st Andrews ?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Copycat73 wrote:


Darien scheme .. folly in extreme .. Scotland's down fall ..
and English coin.. The Equivalent,£398,085 10s sterling most of the sum was used to compensate the investors in the Darien scheme ..
oh and don`t forget the 20,000 was distributed by the Earl of Glasgow, of which 60% went to James Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry, the Queen's Commissioner in Parliament. Another negotiator, Argyll was given an English peerage.

English did the buyin but yous were Sold out by your own political elite .lol.


You do know that the English government were instrumental in the collapse of the Darien scheme. Under pressure from the East India Company, they forced English investors to pull out at the last minute and put pressure on the Dutch to do the same, leaving the Scots footing the entire bill. Then the Spanish blockaded the port and without military support (which the English navy almost certainly would have provided), they were screwed.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Copycat73 wrote:
Islander wrote:

Do they? There's an active interest in Scottish independence here but I'm not aware of any desire to go it alone. Orcadians see themselves as Orcadian first and Scottish second and Shetlanders likewise but they still see themselves as Scottish.


"Many islanders feel the same way about Edinburgh that some people in Cornwall and Yorkshire – and Edinburgh – feel about London"

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18717880.opinion-mark-smith-reason-shetland-orkney-want-independence-holyrood-power-grab/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1334720/nicola-sturgeon-orkney-independence-referendum-vote-scotland-shetland-islands-snp-scottis

various stories .. yes i know "don`t believe what you read in the papers" ... still a delicious thought .. "It comes after Shetland island councillors voted 18 to two in favour of a motion to formally explore options "for achieving financial and political self-determination".

Financially probably get a much better deal as a Crown dependency than as an outlying Scots. region / backwater .... oh and who could not LOVE the Irony !!!

PS. what flag would yous use .. st Andrews ?


People never answer opinion polls out of devilment do they. Laughing

We do have a consortium consisting of Orkney, Western Isles and Shetland - "Our Islands Our Future". It's about negotiating a good position for the islands with the Scottish Government but it's not an independence movement.

Which flag? This flag for Orkney:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/2007_Flag_of_Orkney.svg/1200px-2007_Flag_of_Orkney.svg.png

This flag for Shetland:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Flag_of_Shetland.svg/1200px-Flag_of_Shetland.svg.png

This flag for Comhairle nan Eilean Siar (Western Isles):

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/d-flag-comhairle-nan-eilean-siar-western-isles-council-scotland-d-flag-comhairle-nan-eilean-siar-western-isles-council-123507677.jpg
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
So leave the Union then. But for gawd's sake, quit your whining!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 27 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
You Scots are hilarious. You argue with me, who thinks you should remain a part of the Union, and you argue with Copycat, who thinks you should piss off Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:58 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
You Scots are hilarious. You argue with me, who thinks you should remain a part of the Union, and you argue with Copycat, who thinks you should piss off Laughing


We're an argumentative people. Surely you must have noticed this by now?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 01:05 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://i.imgur.com/tiUmtv3.jpg
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:48 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
You Scots are hilarious. You argue with me, who thinks you should remain a part of the Union, and you argue with Copycat, who thinks you should piss off Laughing


We're an argumentative people. Surely you must have noticed this by now?


I'm sure the EU is looking forward to having you Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:57 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


I'm sure the EU is looking forward to having you Laughing


That's all a tactical bluff to get a referrendum.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 10:46 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

You do know that the English government were instrumental in the collapse of the Darien scheme. Under pressure from the East India .


a predictable reaction against a competitor.. strangle it at birth..
why did they go-ahead with this folly.. could it be their business acumen was on holiday ?
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


This flag for Shetland:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Flag_of_Shetland.svg/1200px-Flag_of_Shetland.svg.png



this one would do .. almost like a St. Andrews .. sure we could fit it into a jack of some description lol.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
You Scots are hilarious. You argue with me, who thinks you should remain a part of the Union, and you argue with Copycat, who thinks you should piss off Laughing


point of order .. fcuk off .. and go bankrupt actually..
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Try not to take this the wrong way but I see the same sort of "give me freedom or give me death" bollox in Cornwall (but to a much lesser extent.)

It's come up comparatively lately. Years ago, there was a feeling that the county was a special place, and misplaced memories of the Cornish Stannary Parliament, which was no such thing as a parliament, and Jonathan Trelawny, etc, but no call for the reinvention of anything. Now, it's a little different. One sees dirty, skanky-looking incomers and woolly self-proclaimed, self-interested liberal thinkers stirring stuff up, as well as begging on the streets "in the season", and I blame them for much trouble.
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