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A100man
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


AH OK you want to play semantics do you? Of course they do - they have a manifesto just like any other political party but the declared intention of the SNP is to lead Scotland down the pan.


FTFY
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A100man
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:

The thing most people don't throw up is the excellent marketing by Commrade Sturgeonetski.

The lassie can talk.

Her mentor/nemisis/under-the-table-BBF Salmond was a talker too. Never once did I witness him being Sat on his Arse by another MSP.



Not wrong there.. she can sound very plausible. Ruth had the measure of her but she's moved on I understand.. As for Salmond his is a politics of 'Jam Tomorrow'.. I read somewhere when he stood for school council as a boy he promised to replace school milk with ice cream, or something like. Trouble is for all the Jam Tomorrow rhetoric, detail on how to make an independent Scotland viable is thin on the ground and always has been. Even the oil boom is over now.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
GettinBetter wrote:
Didn't the Scots just have a referendum a few years back? (Oh, and people voted to stay in the Union)

Asking for a friend.

Is it a case of keep having a referendum until they get the result they want? That sounds like an EU strategy to me.


A government with a manifesto commitment to having a referrendum has just been elected. it is literally the will of the electorate and how this kind of thing is supposed to work.

Flip side of the coin, the Tories held the Brexit one despite the fact the party leaders clearly didn't want to, but they'd made a manifesto committment and were voted into office on the back of that manifesto.

Very different to the way things went down in Eire and Denmark.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


The thing Scots are unhappy about is Westminster rule. How can we fix that? Seriously, a single party has been sent to Westminster with a supermajority. In what way can or do they influence what happens in Westminster?

I'd argue that the half dozen Conservative MPs have more influence than the 44 SNP ones. So do we say that the only way for Scots to influence Westminster politics is for Scotland to vote for the same party as rUK?


And yet a majority of Scots wanted to stay in the EU, where you would have even less say over how you run things. So how do you reconcile those two things?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:44 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Easy-X wrote:


If Scots are unhappy with their lot shouldn't they at least put the effort in to fix it rather than just doing a Cameron and fucking off? And that goes back to Im-a-Ridah's point about London Thinking


The thing Scots are unhappy about is Westminster rule. How can we fix that? Seriously, a single party has been sent to Westminster with a supermajority. In what way can or do they influence what happens in Westminster?

I'd argue that the half dozen Conservative MPs have more influence than the 44 SNP ones. So do we say that the only way for Scots to influence Westminster politics is for Scotland to vote for the same party as rUK?

To extend the Cameron analogy, it's like when he went to the EU for a "better deal" and came back with??


Fair enough point. Couldn't the Scots get a consensus going with the NI MPs and the Welsh MPs? If the Union is so broken because of Westminster maybe a united front against it? I'm sure the English would take Sturgeon a lot more seriously if she talked-up an English parliament but most people I talk to* see her as the bitter, selfish face of Scotland Sad

Going back to Islander's point my mum** asked me the perennial question "yes, but how are they going to pay for everything without our money?" to which I explained: the SNP got voted in on the independence ticket, whether such an aim is workable is neither here nor there. The Scots have as much right to self determination as they have a right to fail without Westminster interference Wink

*In leafy Surrey, a place more detached from the ills of the world would be hard to find.
**Slightly Right of Genghis Khan Daily Mail reader!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


And yet a majority of Scots wanted to stay in the EU, where you would have even less say over how you run things. So how do you reconcile those two things?


The EU thing is a convenient lever to justify a second referrendum. Anyone who sees independance as an important thing will claim to want to be a member of the EU, even if they hate the EUI and all it stands for. Voting against brexit in Scotland wass effectively the same as voting yes for indyref2.

This was pretty much said out loud by the SNP at the time. If the Scottish brexit vote went differently to the rUK one, that would be sufficient justification for another referrendum.

If it comes to the crunch, I personally doubt Scots would vote for EU membership, any more than they would vote the SNP into power in a newly independant Scotland. It's also why making any concrete proposals for what would happen after an independance vote are probably as self defeating as they are pointless. The SNP are not necessarily well liked as politicians. They are a means to an end.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:20 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
I'm sure the English would take Sturgeon a lot more seriously if she talked-up an English parliament but most people I talk to* see her as the bitter, selfish face of Scotland Sad


There is no need to talk up an English parliament. If the English want a seperate parliament, they have the voting power to create one at a whim.

The Westminster Parliament is pretty much a de-facto English one anyway. Scottish MPs have virtually no influence on decisions which are made there. Even the Scottish conservatives in Westminster are outnumbered 60:1.

Westminster is seen as the English government by many Scots. An English government who makes decisions about what will happen in Scotland.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

If it comes to the crunch, I personally doubt Scots would vote for EU membership, any more than they would vote the SNP into power in a newly independant Scotland. It's also why making any concrete proposals for what would happen after an independance vote are probably as self defeating as they are pointless. The SNP are not necessarily well liked as politicians. They are a means to an end.


The SNP probably wouldn't offer a vote. They don't strike me as very democratic.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, the knots the Scots have to tie themselves in to explain all this are certainly interesting.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
The Westminster Parliament is pretty much a de-facto English one anyway.


And the people of England view Westminster as the London Parliament. Certainly the ppl of Liverpool & Manchester would say as much Neutral

I'd say the ideal political set up would be England, Scotland, Wales, NI as more distinct ethno-states with London as a free city. All under the umbrella of the Not-quite-so-United Kingdom. (Centralise defence, foreign policy, etc. as previously mentioned.)

On the latter point just give the Queen (or whoever replaces her) a budget to run the armed forces Very Happy
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A100man
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:

And the people of England view Westminster as the London Parliament. Certainly the ppl of Liverpool & Manchester would say as much Neutral


it always amuses me that Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland.. as a proud county they'd probably give a limb for the powers the Scottish assembly already has.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
GettinBetter wrote:
Didn't the Scots just have a referendum a few years back? (Oh, and people voted to stay in the Union)

Asking for a friend.

Is it a case of keep having a referendum until they get the result they want? That sounds like an EU strategy to me.


I'm not in favour of a split.

The reason referendum is 'on the Scottish Parliaments table now is Coz Brexit.

Whether we like it or not the 'Political Landscape' changed drastically when Britain Exited the EU.

I already suspected the SNP would stir up the haggis again if they didn't get the result they exist for.
Brexit gave them this for no effort by the SNP.

I kind of believe that if Britain had remained in the EU the Scottish Problem would be stamped back into the heather.

I always though better politics by our fat Arse Euro-MPs and our government/s would have secured better conditions for the UK.

Brexit was sold on a race card.

I haven't seen a single benefit from leaving yet.

I have seen several encumberances to my existence in or around the EU.

Not to mention the fish deal. That the EU is sticking to the U.K.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:


The reason referendum is 'on the Scottish Parliaments table now is Coz Brexit.


The UK leaving the EU was a far bigger thing than Scotland leaving the UK. There is no comparison in the effects to England. Whilst I'm in favour of keeping the Union, if Scotland leaves, it just isn't anywhere near as big a deal, except for the Scots. The rest of the UK losing London would have far greater impact. I would pay the price of losing Scotland to keep England out of the EU.

Quote:
Brexit was sold on a race card.


Maybe by some. But for most, it wasn't bought on a race card. You could have taken that completely out of the equation and I think it still would have happened, because it's only really Remainers who like to see it that way.

Quote:
I haven't seen a single benefit from leaving yet.


Looking for instant personal gratification eh? Well, have you been vaccinated against Covid? Wink
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:48 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
MCN wrote:


The reason referendum is 'on the Scottish Parliaments table now is Coz Brexit.


The UK leaving the EU was a far bigger thing than Scotland leaving the UK. There is no comparison in the effects to England. Whilst I'm in favour of keeping the Union, if Scotland leaves, it just isn't anywhere near as big a deal, except for the Scots. The rest of the UK losing London would have far greater impact. I would pay the price of losing Scotland to keep England out of the EU.

Quote:
Brexit was sold on a race card.


Maybe by some. But for most, it wasn't bought on a race card. You could have taken that completely out of the equation and I think it still would have happened, because it's only really Remainers who like to see it that way.

Quote:
I haven't seen a single benefit from leaving yet.


Looking for instant personal gratification eh? Well, have you been vaccinated against Covid? Wink


The reason SNP believe they have just cause in having another go at a referendum on independence. Is because the UK broke union with the EU.

The last referendum on Scottish independence was whilst Britain was part of The EU.

Now that Britain is not part of The EU Scotland is not part of The EU.

The SNP want to be independent but part of the EU.

It's not my argument m8, it's the current Scottish government's.

Brexit was campaigned on race/non-white immigration (Possibly Eastern Block jobism. Where eastern blockists can work in UK for UK pay bit reside in eastern block.

Not many British chase supermarket/hand carwash/Bodge-it-and-Scarper maintenance work in Eastern Block Cuntrys.)

I know there are some British who work in Eastern Block but a tiny minority compared to vice versa and most probably in a 'professional capacity.)

(And for the record, Expats working abroad in 'traditional expat' industry is a different issue. Those are regulated by foreign gov immigration and contractual conditions.)
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:


The SNP want to be independent but part of the EU.

It's not my argument m8, it's the current Scottish government's.


Yes, because hopefully you see the ridiculousness of that.

Quote:
Brexit was campaigned on race/non-white immigration (Possibly Eastern Block jobism.


Merkel's disastrous policy on immigration may have reinforced the desire to get out of the EU, but it did not create it.
I believe in controlled immigration to suit the needs of the UK (not some high ideal of the EU Commission), and I believe illegal immigrants should be given the boot. But leaving the EU for me, and I think you'd find, if you were interested in hearing the people that voted for it, was about not losing our own powers of government to a body that had little interest in anything more than their own highly flawed project, where ordinary people have no say.

Because someone campaigns on an issue does not mean that it is the issue the public care about the most. And besides, immigration wasn't the only thing campaigned on. It's just a convenient way for those who didn't get their way to attempt to insult those who did as racist. Unfortunately, those who lost aren't really respected much on such views outside of their own circles. Call me racist if you like, it doesn't bother me when I know who I am and what I think.

I am happy that we are out of the EU. There is much work still to be done, and it isn't something that is short term. Nations are constantly ongoing projects in their own right, ours has been running for many centuries, and there will be much more change in the future. But it is for the British people to decide on how that develops, not the EU.

I will not be happy about Scotland leaving the UK if that happens, but if that is part of the price we pay to keep out of the EU, so be it. It will be worth it imo.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
The SNP want to be independent but part of the EU.


You can have independence or be part of the EU, you can't have both! That's why most ppl I know voted Brexit anyway. Personally I voted on the basis that few problems in life are solved by adding extra layers of bureaucracy.

Anyhoo, much like Brexit I get the feeling everyone south of the border is sick of it.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:


Anyhoo, much like Brexit I get the feeling everyone south of the border is sick of it.


I just think the Scots have this idea that it's the most important thing in the world to the rest of the UK. Guys, it really isn't. Leave if you must, but don't make such a big song and dance over it outside of Scots-only circles.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Calling Brexit racist was always a cheap shot, but since it’s been raised again, consider that the EU’s negotiator has caught the racism too, or else opposing the destabilising effect of uncontrolled immigration is a reasonable thing to do.
Quote:
In a shock pledge amid a stuttering presidential bid, former Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has told French TV he wants to suspend immigration to France for 3-5 years and toughen checks on the EU’s external borders.

“There are links between [immigration flows] and terrorist networks which try to infiltrate them,” he told RTL-LCI-Le Figaro on Sunday, adding that he didn’t think all immigrants “including those who are trying to cross the Mediterranean to find a better life, are major terrorists or delinquents.”

Barnier, a conservative former finance minister, said immigration was a threat to the stability of French society.


https://www.politico.eu/article/michel-barnier-french-borders-shut-pledge/

MCN wrote:
I always thought better politics by our fat Arse Euro-MPs and our government/s would have secured better conditions for the UK.

Cameron supposedly tried and was rebuffed. Have you not noticed that “more EU” is always the answer?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Apart from trying to get back into the EU (as a net monetary beneficiary rather than as part of a net contributor) what would the Scots do differently as independents? They already have a devolved Parliament while retaining favourable funding per capita compared to England. Is it just a political vanity thing; foreign embassies, a seat at conferences? Or jingoism? What would they do internationally or at home that would differ from rUK?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Easy-X wrote:


Anyhoo, much like Brexit I get the feeling everyone south of the border is sick of it.


I just think the Scots have this idea that it's the most important thing in the world to the rest of the UK. Guys, it really isn't. Leave if you must, but don't make such a big song and dance over it outside of Scots-only circles.


Have a word with Bozo for us then Razz
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


Have a word with Bozo for us then Razz


He's as much our cross to bear as he is yours Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 13 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Have a word with Bozo for us then Razz


He's as much our cross to bear as he is yours Laughing


You may have a point there... Laughing
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MCN
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PostPosted: 07:18 - 14 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Easy-X wrote:


Anyhoo, much like Brexit I get the feeling everyone south of the border is sick of it.


I just think the Scots have this idea that it's the most important thing in the world to the rest of the UK. Guys, it really isn't. Leave if you must, but don't make such a big song and dance over it outside of Scots-only circles.


'The Scots who want independence'.

They are not 'The Scots'.

Point of order....
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 14 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:


'The Scots who want independence'.

They are not 'The Scots'.

Point of order....


They are until the Scots who don't want independence shout louder.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 14 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Apart from trying to get back into the EU (as a net monetary beneficiary rather than as part of a net contributor) what would the Scots do differently as independents? They already have a devolved Parliament while retaining favourable funding per capita compared to England. Is it just a political vanity thing; foreign embassies, a seat at conferences? Or jingoism? What would they do internationally or at home that would differ from rUK?


We wouldn't be able to call Andy Murray British.

Wee Willie Krankie would be a head of state, possible Queen Nicky of Scotland.

Paisley could be ethnically cleansed.
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