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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:

Why is the "way deaths are totalled up" daft, or "within 28 days of being tested positive" ridiculous? I'd love to know why you think that, and also why you think 'flu deaths are included in the COVID-19 total.


Because it includes anyone who died of anything, if they were tested positive in that period. Just because you test positive, doesn't mean covid is going to kill you. Not difficult to grasp.

Have I been misinformed about the inclusion of flu deaths in the total? I'm sure I heard that in the news a little while back. Perhaps I'm wrong, or they were wrong?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
I just don't think that draconian lockdowns are the way to go.


Ah, so. China had a wokdown that was certainly the way to go. It fixed their problem. Here? Loads of thick stupid fuckers didn't take any notice, leading to reduction in efficiacy.


I don't think people in the west are going to stand for being welded into their homes, do you?
Nor do I much trust any information coming from the CCP.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:09 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:


chickenstrip wrote:
Nor does the WHO for that matter.

No? Where do they say "lockdowns are no use"?


Why have you put that phrase in quote marks?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
I just question whether the government has done much to protect anyone.

Really? Confused

You're serious and not taking the piss as they have done at least a few things which by most standards would be considered quite hard to have missed?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

chickenstrip wrote:
Nor does the WHO for that matter.

No? Where do they say "lockdowns are no use"?

Why have you put that phrase in quote marks?

So you won't answer. Thought not, just like last time. That's 'cos you're wrong, of course.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
So shoot me.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wouldn't mind betting that until all countries have fully vaccinated their populations a vaccine passport will be needed to travel especially to the EU before long. It's not because of the boomers, just because that will be the only way countries will open their borders to get tourism and visitors back. Why would you risk another influx of the disease when you can have that as a form of control yet start to get things back to normal.

If I was one of you youngsters I'd be more worried about the altruistic lefties crying that once our vulnerable have been vaccinated it is our moral duty as the to give all the vaccines left to every other country in the world because we are <insert anti British slur> and need to do this to apologise for our colonial past. Rolling Eyes

I also expect that by the middle of the year you will be able to get the vaccine privately and jump the queue.
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
Why is the "way deaths are totalled up" daft, or "within 28 days of being tested positive" ridiculous? I'd love to know why you think that, and also why you think 'flu deaths are included in the COVID-19 total.


The within 28 days bit is ridiculous because symptoms could have long ceased and the china virus could have nothing to do with the cause of death.

The flu deaths being added into the total is probably based on the confusion around how from October they started being included in the same report..... as separate numbers. Some reporters erroneously missed the latter part of that info and assumed they being reported as one number.
Having said that, the testing isn't faultless and does appear to have a pretty healthy level of false positives so the idea that people dying from flu related complications being recorded as covid isn't entirely negated.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

(Is it my new iPad or am I doing something wrong wrt quotes lately?)


Code:
[quote=“chickenstrip”] I just question whether the government has done much to protect anyone. I would suggest that most people have done what they can to protect themselves thus far. [/quote]


Your first set of inverted commas are weird. You have “ insetad of "

If I re-do it with normal inverted commas, it works.

chickenstrip wrote:
I just question whether the government has done much to protect anyone. I would suggest that most people have done what they can to protect themselves thus far.

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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
BTTD wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
Why is the "way deaths are totalled up" daft, or "within 28 days of being tested positive" ridiculous? I'd love to know why you think that, and also why you think 'flu deaths are included in the COVID-19 total.

The within 28 days bit is ridiculous because symptoms could have long ceased and the china virus could have nothing to do with the cause of death.

Remember that the virus is not the disease, which is COVID-19.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:

Remember that the virus is not the disease, which is COVID-19.


The virus is: Severe Acute Respiratory Dissress Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), since we're being pedantic about it.
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
I wouldn't mind betting that until all countries have fully vaccinated their populations a vaccine passport will be needed to travel especially to the EU before long. It's not because of the boomers, just because that will be the only way countries will open their borders to get tourism and visitors back. Why would you risk another influx of the disease when you can have that as a form of control yet start to get things back to normal.


France currently requires a negative covid test within the 72 hours prior to travel, and the UK requires the same to return (unless you're a doctor or engineer seeking asylum of course), so I wouldn't be surprised if that remained a thing.
Based on the disorganised approach of the EU to vaccinations so far I'm not sure how they'd manage with setting up an EU wide vaccination passport...
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 23:49 - 31 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Vaccine passports would seem to open the UK up to the sometimes mooted identity document. I accept that we use driving licences, utility bills and passports in a similar manner but somehow an identity document seems a bit Nazi-occupied Europe for my liking, maybe irrationally.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

Remember that the virus is not the disease, which is COVID-19.

The virus is: Severe Acute Respiratory Dissress Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), since we're being pedantic about it.

It's not pedantic to say that the virus is not the disease it causes. It's merely accurate.

Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 - to be pedantic.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:
It's not pedantic to say that the virus is not the disease it causes.

Is it a helpful distinction though?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:08 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
It's not pedantic to say that the virus is not the disease it causes.

Is it a helpful distinction though?


Group A Streptococcus bacteria cause scarlet fever but not all Group A streptococcal infections are scarlet fever.

I suppose you could correctly say that the vast majority of SARS COV2 infections are not COVID19 on account of them not causing disease.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
@chickenstrip you sound like one of those "QuEsTiOn thE StAtiSTiCs" derps who are only making the country worse with your anti-lockdown, anti-expert, anti-WHO, antic-common-sense narrative.

The only statistics I care about are the 100,000 dead and the 1 year of lockdown, and I can't fucking stand that people like you are making it worse and prolonging the entire covid lockdown bollocks by parroting completely uneducated opinions about what you think the numbers really mean.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Getting back to the point, I think Vaccine Passports are a good idea. These should be extended to include people who have already had the disease.

People who fall into the above categories should be allowed to live their lives as normal, as the chances of them contracting and subsequently passing the disease on is apparently very small.

It isn't rocket-science but there will doubtless be some that don't agree....
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:04 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Time to read the Huffpost's article: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/covid-conspiracy-theories-uk_uk_60167206c5b653f644d4895b in conjunction with this comedic quote: https://www.liveabout.com/best-george-carlin-quotes-of-all-time-3958721 ?

Anyway, there's no fixing it, so pfffft.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
@chickenstrip you sound like one of those "QuEsTiOn thE StAtiSTiCs" derps who are only making the country worse with your anti-lockdown, anti-expert, anti-WHO, antic-common-sense narrative.

The only statistics I care about are the 100,000 dead and the 1 year of lockdown, and I can't fucking stand that people like you are making it worse and prolonging the entire covid lockdown bollocks by parroting completely uneducated opinions about what you think the numbers really mean.


There there, never mind.

Don't take me so seriously mate. I have some doubts about the narrative and policies, that's all. I don't deny covid, I don't think it's nothing - obviously for some it is very serious, and I think some precautions are necessary. But if we can't have the discussions without people getting all uppity (and yes, I do acknowledge I have been guilty of that on occasion), then we might as well close the politics section. I read what others say, and sometimes it alters my view. I'm just trying to get a better picture of things, and I fully realise I'm not infallible. Sometimes I also do like to play devil's advocate, hopefully to generate some real discussion.

Lockdowns are a very serious measure to take, and as such, I believe they require very close scrutiny. It's not like it just means sitting indoors for a while for many people who have lost their businesses, jobs, futures, lives sometimes.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok Lord Percy, what kind of trade-off between the economy and lockdowns should we accept? No limits?
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

Do you think everything the government has done through this pandemic has been effective in reducing the problem?
I just don't think that draconian lockdowns are the way to go. Nor does the WHO for that matter. I think we could get a good segment of the economy working again with care and the proper precautions, mostly protecting those in known vulnerable categories.


The WHO is also in the pocket of the Chinese Communist Party. Actually I would ignore most of the what the UN says tbh.

Easy-X wrote:
I'm thinking that what Covid-19 exposes is a lack of redundancy in various systems: the NHS may have been running very efficiently pre-2020 but throw it a curveball and it'll fall over with the first gust of wind*

Also highlighted is what we think of as "essential." Food & Booze - essential, not clogging up the NHS - essential, sacrificing the young for the old - essential. Not essential: hairdressers, tattoo artists, hotels, restaurants, pubs, holidays abroad.... mental health, cancer treatments err... social unity being the least essential thing apparently Sad

*Wow, how many metaphors can we mix!


The NHS already receives a huge percentage of the UK budget. It's not really possible to extract any more tax from the public, and debt just burdens future generations for today's spending. It's probably not popular but fixing the NHS is probably going to require a national care service that takes the weight of the vast number of old people with a minor fall or something off of the NHS. Salaries in some areas are also clearly too high. According to the NHS the budget is £130Bn, 50% goes on pay for 1.1m staff which means that on average they are taking home £118,454 each. Salaries so much higher than the people who pay them doesn't seem very sustainable. On the plus side the NHS does seem to be quite cost efficient when it comes to getting stuff done like operations and a&e.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
Ok Lord Percy, what kind of trade-off between the economy and lockdowns should we accept? No limits?


This idea that it's all a trade-off between lockdown and economy is what has led to this whole mess in the first place.

Look at the nations who put public health first. They're now doing bloody well, and do not have fucked economies. Meanwhile the UK in all its wisdom has one of the worst affected economies in the western world, precisely because we never really focused on proper lockdown and/or virus eradication from the start.

I've already said what I would do. Hardcore lockdown, army on the streets if needs (everyone was in their tally-ho wartime spirits at the start of this), stockpile a couple of month's worth of vital supplies, then shut all ports apart from very important reasons. Enforce strict, proper quarantine for new arrivals. Have a proper testing/tracing system for those who get sick.

Basically all the stuff other countries were already doing, which our super intelligent better-than-the-expects leaders decided to completely ignore, or worse, decided to use an excuse to siphon taxpayer cash off to their mates.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two questions for now:

1.How long for? Two months?

2. Do you think that 'complete' rollout of the vaccine will mitigate the need for it?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 01 Feb 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Look at the nations who put public health first. They're now doing bloody well, and do not have fucked economies.

For avoidance of doubt, which countries are you referring to?

Lord Percy wrote:
we never really focused on proper lockdown and/or virus eradication from the start.

Isn't the vaccine the key to virus eradicating?
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