Anyone know about washing machine motors?

[WD Forte]

This may help

https://zonalimitatore.blogspot.com/2016/02/panasonic-na107vc4-e-il-problema-della.html

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4ihcSTiSPQ4/Vsw7oxTuutI/AAAAAAAAENE/os4WN7qDIbs/s640/IMG_20160104_110544.jpg

Translation:

I would like to share with you a problem I had with this washing machine model.
Since I had asked for various info for the web, without receiving an answer and given the hallucinating price of the new card (160 € for a circuit that costs maybe 30 €) I wanted to understand why the washing and spinning did not work.

In practice, the washing machine worked, but when it was time to give the consent to the motor to run, nothing happened, and after a few seconds it went into error with the word END and the buzzer.

I obviously checked if there was continuity on the brush / motor / board cables and everything was ok.

Since the problem did not always arise, I wanted to concentrate on the electronic board.

In fact, when it worked, the relay switched on and off normally. When it didn't work, there was no CLACK on the part of the relay.

Once I checked that the 4 relays were not blocked, I replaced the components circled in blue, and now, finally, it works as before !!!!!!!
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bikers smell of wee

[stinkwheel]

[Easy-X]

At a glance it does look like enough heat damage to slightly reflow the solder

Might want to have a look through CPC Components, Farnell & RS for all the discrete components in that area and replace them en masse rather than trying to figure out the specific one that's gone wonky.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Islander]

The diodes can be replaced with 1N4007 (higher reverse voltage than 1N4001), the resistor is 100 ohms 2 watt +/- 10% tolerance. The capacitors - just read off of the can.

It looks like a rectifier circuit - probably to run the relay coil.

[WD Forte]

For the £1.50 or so it costs
I'd change that relay
Omron G5lA-1-VD24 ( not E! got comfused for a mo)

Even if you reflow it, the contacts may well have been arcing for years
and be in poor state

I've used lots of this type and heres how they work
Power in on A pad
Normally Closed to B pad and share track too so same potential/no arcing
Switches to Normally Open contact at C most prone to arc/heat

Blue dots show the relay actuator coil pads, low current little arcing

https://imgur.com/vWhc5bE.jpg
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bikers smell of wee

[andym]

I'll be the first to admit I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about here, but in the OP, have you thought about cleaning all that crud off first?

Maybe a light sanding of the copper contacts....

[stinkwheel]

cheers for the help guys. Order placed at CPC (had an account for years) had to add in another £16 of stuff to get free delivery.

The relay itself looks pretty ship-shape, no scorching etc on the contacts and has continuity where it ought to.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dwiqyksw61ytGt7mAjShXuuUPuSquyQKE9YBC-jdVebXmKOzkqaqp91zTQTCSSXfSJBgDnwMCx5p68pxVzg9KudzwG9VmN43BGk20K1HNQzPU-KgnnkrRLf_96FXfCw-ND5ILMpZ1_xfr8b3btLQEt=w1195-h672-no

I'm much more confident I'm going to fix this now. ordering a new one would have been easier and quicker but I'm learning a lot and fuck obsolecence.

Now to see if my soldering is up to scratch. I've already got one of those weller style soldering guns. I've ordered a couple of much pointier tips for it and some much thinner solder than I usually use (I generally do electrics rather than electronics). If I pre-tin the terminals, it should just be a case of melting the old one out, pushing the new one in and applying heat and maybe a tiny spot to the backside right?

Those melty tracks are maybe best left alone? I could see me making a right arse of it if I try to patch them. They are conducting.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[WD Forte]

If i didn't already have it I'd want a circa 50W regulated iron with smallish tip and solder sucker similar to the ones in the pic.
plus resin cored lead/tin solder, fuck that lead free shite.

My usual practise is to tin the iron and add some fresh solder to the pads
as this usually helps me remove old solder before lifting components
off the board or reflowing.
I have a Weller gun type iron but that's used for big stuff not pcbs.
It could easily add to much heat and lift the track off the
board if you're not very careful.








https://www.hobbyrc.co.uk/content/images/thumbs/0006351_engineer-ss-02-solder-sucker.jpeg
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bikers smell of wee

[stinkwheel]

I've got a gas soldering iron too with some very pointy tips. i don't generally use it because it doesn't get hot enough to flow solder into a spade terminal before the insualtion starts to melt... Sounds like this may be the exact property I'm looking for?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Islander]

[MCN]

Not bothered my Arse to read the full thread.
Most modern washing machines use VFD motors as the speed control is more reliable (until it fails).

I don't know the test procedure for VFD motors differs too much from non-VFD motors.

I'd go for the control card as motors are really reliable as most are brushless.
Bearings failure would have been very evident before sudden failure.
I've had the same Bosch washer for 20 years. And dish washer. Fridge went on fire when I was out of the Cuntry. I never knew about it. It still worked fine but the freezer had a melted plate and heat discoloration. Found out years later that they had cases of houses burning down due to 'frost free' fridges catching fire.
The frost free thing is a little heating coil in the freezer. The top fridge part is cooled by Air blown around from the bottom part where the heater is. Sorry for the side track OP.
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN.

[stinkwheel]

Parts are incoming. I had a slight Father Ted moment with my first order. Accidentally a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf. It was a bit "This capacitor is very small, that one is far away.".

I've had to order all sorts of shit I didn't need too because farnell stock all the stuff but you have to spend £17.50 +VAT to get free delivery and I'm not paying £6 delivery on a 45p bag of capacitors.

Every single seller of small volume electronic componants on ebay seems to be drop-shipping, quoting delivery times in excess of a week. I know farnell dispatch on the day of ordering.

I am now the proud owner of new secateurs, some spare hoover bags and a new pair of work trousers... 5 capacitors, a steel ruler and some new G-clamps should be arriving tomorrow.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[WD Forte]

Bearing in mind the age, it looks typically like what they call a 'universal motor' to me,
aka a 'commutated series wound' type

Just going by my brief view of the pic and what I can make out from the tracks and Ics
I dont see much in the line of VFD control ICs, just relays to run the motor
and swap over the field coils (reverse)
and reckon that 3 legged IC with the big heat sink is a TRIAC for speed control

You might want to check the the soldering on that for dry joints too
____________________
bikers smell of wee

[A100man]

[MCN]

[stinkwheel]

You can add lead to it though right? Heat it up and put a dab of proper flux-core 60:40 on and it'll all flow together and stick to stuff? If my reading is correct, the lead will further lower the melting point of lead free solder?

Since we're on it. Should I try to do anything with those soldered tracks that have gone melty or just leave them alone? Maybe needs a hot air gun to do anything with them? The internet seems unclear if they are even necessary.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f8qWiWeuSWixuY2eLMeXxLZ4ER9AJoQO2mKWx3oK17VvJyujWVbf-srLiQRM-bKyQGmVF7yGUuokJSOG1Bq0F5MjtlWnv2PA8vaaRN-_wiNVa275ADnnoKSCkAZjsEKslYKebh6TUIZQPlbrjZygjj=w1529-h860-no
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Islander]

[Islander]

Oh and you can reflow lead free stuff (if that's what it is) with proper lead/tin solder. It'll work just fine.

[Easy-X]

It's gone shiny where the solder has reflowed but it doesn't look like any has spontaneously evaporated or dropped off. It's a symptom not an actual problem.

The main thing to look for is around the legs of components. If there's a bit of a valley or even a gap you could see daylight through, dab it with some fresh solder
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[WD Forte]

Did you get a solder sucker?
I've found old solder can sometimes be bit of sod to flow
probably because of oxidisation on the surface perhaps
Adding a dab of some new LTin solder 'freshens' it up
I then retouch the iron and suck it off ( stop that sniggering at the back!)
check the leg/pin and pad is clean and bright and hasn't got any crust or burns then reflow it.

If any looks dry and crusty it may have developed some thermal resistance
which means you can be tempted to apply heat for too long and lift tracks or overheat components
I often scratch it or use a small brass brush or pointy pokey thing
to get some shine back before applying new solder.

Its a similar process to getting crust and rust off steel prior to welding
____________________
bikers smell of wee

[stinkwheel]

I got a sucker and some of that copper wick stuff. Which looks handy for scratching stuff up too.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[stinkwheel]

I think this thing is fucked. I replaced the componants described above. I have them the right way round and they are making good contact. Nothing appeared to be fried. It is now bricked, nothing powering up or on at all.

That relay with the melted solder tracks actually powers the heating element. Nothing to do with the motor.

Power is coming into the PCB and getting through the switch but it's not getting to the low voltage side.

I have found something distinctly fishy though. This smoky bit, with the IC attached is reading over 700V AC. That can't be right?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c0omBJfYXai-TcCtstoIYZGLH4Pre3h1JFFkbYD5ugtKn7c9TqX8LcIamFWSUngfDxou1ovduR5zXimXtPKRglUB7ZcaDV91AmgGJRbU5FfCNN7L4a6S3kjpzrOawzZcM64fpLSQMr7JAwVUy9w_w2=w484-h860-no

I'm nearly ready to call this thing dead and order another one. I reckon it's cooked something that can't be easily fixed. I have however learned how to solder componants to a PCB and the whole exercise has cost me less than £20 in parts and less than £10 in new tools (which I still have).

I can't find any references to that chip E9217, what it is and what it does (which may explain why it has smoky stuff under it). I'm pretty sure it shouldn't have over 700VAC on the pins all down one side of it though.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Islander]

I think that's a buck regulator (switched mode power supply) chip. The four pins would be the drain if it is. Have a look at this and compare the circuit arrangements on the board with the example circuit.

https://components101.com/ics/viper12a-smps-buck-regulator

[WD Forte]

I looked that IC up a while back but didn't want to mention it
and maybe over complicate things.
I cant see the board or track clearly enough to work out what's what
and what's going where
(even if you can, fault finding an unknown board can still be a laborious process without a
circuit diagram)
but what with the resistor, diode, smoothing caps and transformer nearby
and the 4 commoned pins, I suspect it might be switching regulator
related of the Viper22A smps control IC

summary:
"The VIPER22A controller can convert AC voltage from 85V to 265V and convert it to regulated DC voltage"
pinout and more detailed info here :

https://components101.com/ics/viper22a-smps-controller

edit: ah, I see Islander is ahead of me
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bikers smell of wee

[WD Forte]

I spose now you'll be wanting a hot air rework set for the smds
____________________
bikers smell of wee