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Can an AGM battery be mounted on its side?

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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 11:51 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Can an AGM battery be mounted on its side? Reply with quote

I have a 98 R1 4XV which needs a new battery. The old one was an AGM battery so I ordered the same, this time a Varta YT12B-BS. It's arrived and states clearly on the side of the battery not to mount it anything other than upright.

Is this a peculiarity of the Varta, or was the previous AGM battery also incorrectly mounted?

What came new in an R1?

What batteries do people use mounted on their sides in bikes that require it? Gel and Lithium?

Thanks
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is an AGM should be fine on their side but not upside down. Gel and lithium can go upside down.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Re: Can an AGM battery be mounted on its side? Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
I have a 98 R1 4XV which needs a new battery. The old one was an AGM battery so I ordered the same, this time a Varta YT12B-BS. It's arrived and states clearly on the side of the battery not to mount it anything other than upright.

Is this a peculiarity of the Varta, or was the previous AGM battery also incorrectly mounted?

What came new in an R1?

What batteries do people use mounted on their sides in bikes that require it? Gel and Lithium?

Thanks


Only ever had an AGM battery in a BMW 7 series and IIRC they can definitely be mounted on their sides, but not upside down. I am sure I got that nugget of information from a FortNine video on battery types.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be a vent in the top cover. Probaly an integral feature but some have a wee prastivhose on a tube.
AGM also known as vented.
Just don't plug or block the vent.

In case it shorts and asplodes.
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this is the sticker on the battery

No visible vent unless it's under the tear off strip for filling, which I don't want to remove in case I need to return it
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arry
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
My understanding is an AGM should be fine on their side but not upside down. Gel and lithium can go upside down.


That's what Fortnine says - here:
https://youtu.be/3ywopGAXP-I?t=106
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
So this is the sticker on the battery

No visible vent unless it's under the tear off strip for filling, which I don't want to remove in case I need to return it


Whatever anyone or anything else says I wouldn't install that in any other position than upright. That's a pretty unequivocal message on that sticker.

If necessary, send it back and get a battery the same as the original if that's the position it is fitted.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
So this is the sticker on the battery

No visible vent unless it's under the tear off strip for filling, which I don't want to remove in case I need to return it


They MUST be vented to release internal pressure.

Some may have a check valve. The vent can be in the cover and gas can escape via gaps inn the bond.

Gel AGM batteries still have the same lead acid chemistry but the acid is mechanically restrained within the glass fiber construction.

I would prefer to use any battery as Per the OEM advice.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:


They MUST be vented to release internal pressure.

Some may have a check valve. The vent can be in the cover and gas can escape via gaps inn the bond.

Gel AGM batteries still have the same lead acid chemistry but the acid is mechanically restrained within the glass fiber construction.

I would prefer to use any battery as Per the OEM advice.


MUST they?

I had a sealed bosche lead acid (not AGM, it was before those, you filled it from an acid cartridge then pushed a sealing strip in over the cells) on my MZ baghira and it blew up like a balloon. The battery box had to be cut down one side to remove it, then it was carried gingerly down to the bottom of the garden in a plastic bucket while wearing big rubber gloves and eye protection, tipped out and "disarmed" from a safe distance with an air rifle. Went off bang.

I suspect they may have a high pressure blow off valve or weak point to stop them becoming an actual bomb but they ship the things pre-filled in the post and there's nothing to uncover when you install them. They don't leak in the post.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much the same place as Id got to, may be fine, but the manufacturer states not to, so return it.

Question is, what to buy instead. Lithium is spendy and not without it's issues and lead acid and AGM aren't guaranteed to be useable on their side, so I guess gel?

Recommendations please!
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery

Lead acid wet batteries must be vented.
The ones that come with acid pack are sealed by the plugs or a sealing tape. The acid is tipped in and the plugs installed.
The plugs have a vent in each or will be of a design that can fail in a controlled manner.
Mechanical damage inside any battery can overwhelm any protective device too.
It why phaphing with batteries needs a bit of skill and experience.

I'd avoid lithium as it self-ignites if you look at it the wrong way.
Lithium is weak to mechanical injury.
Plenty you tube things on that.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So they aren't vented at all. They are sealed and have a blow-offdevice if they go over-pressure.

Presumably this would work equally well with gas or liquid pressure. It would also destroy the battery. From my experience, it would also spoil your day because it wouldn't just be gas coming out of it. More a geyser of sulphuric acid mixed with hydrogen gas.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:


It why phaphing with batteries needs a bit of skill and experience.
.


Read that as "phapping", thought damn right you're gonna need skill if you're into that.
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I bought a new lead acid battery for my 5JJ R1 it came with a seperate acid pack that I emptied into the casing.Once this was done I pressed in the seal that keeps the battery acid in place and placed it on its side as all batteries of the 4XV,the 5JJ and the 5PW do.There is no chance of spillage and there is no maintenance.They are near enough 'fit and forget'.....

I bought it from here

https://www.tayna.co.uk/motorcycle-batteries/f/yamaha/yzf-r1-98-03/

As for lithium batteries not liking a knock,I have one fitted to my KTM enduro and that works perfectly in that environment.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzer Thou wrote:
When I bought a new lead acid battery for my 5JJ R1 it came with a seperate acid pack that I emptied into the casing.Once this was done I pressed in the seal that keeps the battery acid in place and placed it on its side as all batteries of the 4XV,the 5JJ and the 5PW do.There is no chance of spillage and there is no maintenance.They are near enough 'fit and forget'.....

I bought it from here

https://www.tayna.co.uk/motorcycle-batteries/f/yamaha/yzf-r1-98-03/

As for lithium batteries not liking a knock,I have one fitted to my KTM enduro and that works perfectly in that environment.


Really?

"Rapid-discharge problems
Lithium batteries can provide extremely high currents and can discharge very rapidly when short-circuited. Although this is useful in applications where high currents are required, a too-rapid discharge of a lithium battery - especially if cobalt is present in the cells' design - can result in overheating of the battery (that lowers the electrical resistance of any cobalt content within the cell), rupture, and even an explosion. Lithium-thionyl chloride batteries are particularly susceptible to this type of discharge. Consumer batteries usually incorporate overcurrent or thermal protection or vents to prevent an explosion as a part of battery management system.[35]"

Damage doesn't necessarily mean vibration.

The issue is that when they go off they crater rapidly.

So safe that airlines refuse to carry in hold luggage. And only so much is permitted in hand baggage.

Coz the crater rapidly and sometimes for no 'visible' reasons.
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 25 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:


I'd avoid lithium as it self-ignites if you look at it the wrong way.
Lithium is weak to mechanical injury.
Plenty you tube things on that.


Exactly, I'm not racing, wont feel the difference and dont need to be spending £150 on a battery and charger which goes on fire if you overcharge it, undercharge it....

Fine in my Tesla, with proper electronic battery management, but the average motorcycle battery doesnt have that

Fizzer Thou wrote:
When I bought a new lead acid battery for my 5JJ R1 it came with a seperate acid pack that I emptied into the casing.Once this was done I pressed in the seal that keeps the battery acid in place and placed it on its side as all batteries of the 4XV,the 5JJ and the 5PW do.There is no chance of spillage and there is no maintenance.They are near enough 'fit and forget'.....



So your lead acid wasnt vented? I've run similar in my street triple and GPZ, both upright, but shipped as you describe. I assumed however that like car batteries they were vented to air.
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 26 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
Fizzer Thou wrote:
When I bought a new lead acid battery for my 5JJ R1 it came with a seperate acid pack that I emptied into the casing.Once this was done I pressed in the seal that keeps the battery acid in place and placed it on its side as all batteries of the 4XV,the 5JJ and the 5PW do.There is no chance of spillage and there is no maintenance.They are near enough 'fit and forget'.....



So your lead acid wasnt vented? I've run similar in my street triple and GPZ, both upright, but shipped as you describe. I assumed however that like car batteries they were vented to air.


No,the battery fitted to my R1 is not vented.I have never fitted a battery to my R1 that was vented.The one on my Exup-R is though and that is located in an upright position on the bike.

https://cdn.tayna.com/datasheets/Yuasa-MF-YT12B-BS-Datasheet.pdf

As for car batteries,the one I bought for my four wheeler is also sealed and maintenance free with no venting to atmosphere.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 01:49 - 27 Mar 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzer Thou wrote:


No,the battery fitted to my R1 is not vented.I have never fitted a battery to my R1 that was vented.The one on my Exup-R is though and that is located in an upright position on the bike.

https://cdn.tayna.com/datasheets/Yuasa-MF-YT12B-BS-Datasheet.pdf

As for car batteries,the one I bought for my four wheeler is also sealed and maintenance free with no venting to atmosphere.


https://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/motorcycle-power-sport/maintenance-free/yt12b-bs.html

"VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) "
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 27 Mar 2021    Post subject: Re: Can an AGM battery be mounted on its side? Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
I have a 98 R1 4XV which needs a new battery. The old one was an AGM battery so I ordered the same, this time a Varta YT12B-BS. It's arrived and states clearly on the side of the battery not to mount it anything other than upright.
Is this a peculiarity of the Varta, or was the previous AGM battery also incorrectly mounted?
What came new in an R1?
What batteries do people use mounted on their sides in bikes that require it? Gel and Lithium?


The original question was 'can an AGM battery be mounted flat instead of upright?' The Yamaha 4XV-R1 manual shows the battery installed flat.
https://i.postimg.cc/bY3VdZgN/20210327-134957.jpg

So MCN's view that they should never be laid flat is a load of twaddle.Why comment on something that is unknown?

This is what came in my 5JJ-R1 which has the battery mounted in exactly the same way as the 4XV and the 5PW.There is no vent on the casing anywhere.So MCN's opinion that all batteries 'must' be vented is twaddle...again.
https://i.postimg.cc/RFxy12JS/20210327-134831.jpg

Owning an Exup-R as I do,as well as the 5JJ-R1,the battery in that is vented,as evidenced by the downpipe shown
https://i.postimg.cc/xj3D5jPW/20210327-120316.jpg

Even the battery in my FJ1200-3XW is not vented,but the method for mounting is vertical and there is no other option
https://i.postimg.cc/tJ2cjTSJ/20210327-134858.jpg

As the link for replacement batteries shows,the majority of them are of the AGM type.So the answer to the original question is yes,they can be mounted flat.I even tried leaving my 5JJ-R1 battery upside down all day and nothing has leaked out.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/motorcycle-batteries/f/yamaha/yzf-r1-98-03/
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