Ducati hydraulic clutch help please

[steve the grease]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Brembo-Clutch-Master-Cylinder-Seal-Kit-Rebuild-Panigale-1098-61041991A-/183497835836


Or similar.
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All the above is my personal opinion, you can see my lips move, but I'm talking out of my arse.
I've been riding, and fixing , bikes for 50 years, in that time the more I learn, the less I am absolutely sure of.....

[MCN]

Bleeding stuff.

There is some evidence that suggests a vacuum pump will do a better job of bleeding than applying pressure.
The vacuum makes any air bubbles in the system bigger (when atmospheric pressure is removed by the vacuum pump).
Bigger bubbles clump together easier.
Bigger bubbles are less inclined to adhere to the surfaces of the system.
Then the big bubbles can be displaced by fluid.
Mitivac is a tool that uses that principle.
Kind of expensive if you don't plan to use it often there are cheaper clones but there are not so robust.
I use Gunson Ezibleed. It's a bottle that you 1/2 fill with new fluid.
Apply a little air pressure to the top of the bottle.
Attach to the 'top' of the system via the supplied cap.
The hose tap is opened to the fluid on the system.
And the system bled as per OEM order.

Some folk critical about applying air pressure to the fluid. For fear of air dissolving into the fluid.
But the pressure is only on the fluid for a few minutes so air ingress is negligible.
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN.

[DUCAUDI]

Thank you everyone so much for all your input.

[MCN]

[DUCAUDI]

I EVEN managed to fit the new Oberon slave cylinder that my bike mechanic said he couldn't do.

He just seemed reluctant to do the necessary modifications to the push rod in order to make it work.

As I mentioned before the reason for the Oberon slave cylinder was it was recommended to me some time back by a fellow BCF member because originally the clutch was VERY grabby (in hindsight maybe that could have had partly something to do with the poor state of the fluid in there) but I was told that's pretty much normal for Ducatis but because we bought this bike for my wife to do her DAS on we didn't want her having to struggle with a non-beginner-friendly grabby clutch and apparently the Oberon slave cylinder makes this a lot better.

So the guy fitted it for us a while back but IIFC it wouldn't go into gear. It was like the clutch was held in all the time. The reason he gave for this was the push rod was too short, we either needed a longer push rod or to add a small length or rod in there or a ball bearing just to increase the length and that should sort it. But he wasn't willing or didn't seem to have the inclination to try to help us so just reverted it back to stock for us.

However, now I've had the thing apart and I THINK I understand how it works now... thinking back to what he said about the rod being too short surely doesn't make sense??? If anything, because the bike was in neutral the whole time, surely that's because the rod was pushed in all the way even when the clutch lever wasn't being pulled. So if anything surely that meant the stock push rod was too LONG, not too short???

I even emailed Oberon about it at the time and even they said some random models need a longer push rod or a ball bearing inserted to make it work as this is a generic part that fits shit loads of Ducatis, not just the 696.

So anyway I put my theory into practise and shaved about 10mm off the end of the push rod with it in situ and rounded off the burrs to make a bit of a chamfer like how it was originally.

I had already ordered a new push rod from eBay last night for only £12 which has already been dispatched, as I had planned to do the modifications and cut part of the new push rod to use an extender piece. But now it's apparent I'm not going to need that as I had to make the rod shorter, not longer, but at least I'll have an original length push rod just in case I need to revert back to the OEM slave cylinder if this modification doesn't work.

Put the whole thing back together again and it appears to work, it appears to sit in neutral and bite in gear when you release the clutch. Still on my driveway in pieces at the moment but promising. Will put the rest back together and take it out later to test it's working fully ok.
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[DUCAUDI]

Ok it bites but doesn't engage fully. Maybe it needs more to be shaved off the push rod.

But what does this brass grub screw do? Does this adjust the biting point? Maybe unscrewing this would fix it?

It's too late now I've locked it up and packed my tools away but will have at it again tomorrow.

https://i.ibb.co/54XVN1G/20210406-211146.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/5LCwMYz/20210406-211137.jpg
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[Robby]

It took 2 pages of a thread for you to bleed the clutch - a fairly standard maintenance procedure.

Cutting down clutch parts randomly to make something work is a whole different thing. Remember the slave cylinder only has about 3-5mm of total travel. You need to be exact on your measurements of the push rod.

The oberon item is used to give a lighter clutch feel. I learnt about Ducati clutches from fitting one to another BCFers bike. It span the slave cylinder, ruined the seals, and wouldn't ever bleed. I'm not a fan of them.

I would be minded to get it working on the standard cylinder. You may just have to get a taller wife.

[DUCAUDI]

[DUCAUDI]

Going back to my last two photos though does that little brass screw do the same thing that one of these does on a cable system?

https://cf.shopee.com.my/file/9f1fe9b84e489ebb83195272c3de9602

If so, it's screwed all the way in, presumably winding it out a bit should get the gears to engage slightly more. Worth a try in the morning...
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[Robby]

On a cable operated clutch, the point of the adjusters is to take up slack in the cable to keep the clutch operating correctly as the cable stretches.

The whole advantage of hydraulic clutches is that you don't need to adjust them. Also means you can't adjust them. The only adjustment you have is lever position, done with the big lever span adjuster turny thing.

If the system is bled properly and working, with clean fluid that is able to move around, the biting point will be wherever Ducati decided to put it. Somewhere in the middle of the lever travel.

Also, the clutch will probably be a lot less grabby on the standard cylinder now that the fluid can move around properly. Sludge makes everything shit.

[DUCAUDI]

Cool thanks for tolerating my ignorance and giving me some help

I did already try releasing that brass screw though and it did have the effect I expected it to, it did move the push rod ever so slightly and allow the gears to engage fully (although now the gearbox rattles in neutral which it didn't do before). I take your point though it's probably a bodge to fix the problem so will fine-tune it at a later date by shaving a bit more off the push rod and setting that brass screw somewhere in the middle like it was before.

FWIW it still feels a bit grabby.

Took the bike half way down the road to test it and the front brakes jammed on. Here we go again! Got the wife to run the van down to me with the tools in the back and tried removing the callipers so at least the bike could be moved (the front brakes were like they were welded on so hard it wouldn't budge an inch, instead all the bike wanted to do was burnouts). Got some of the bolts off but ended up breaking my torx T40 bit from my 1/2" Britool Expert set. Not happy. Thought these were supposed to be quality tools? Checked the Britool website and it now appears Britool have merged with French company Facom Gonna buy Strap-On from now on!

To be honest, a complete brake overhaul is probably something I'd rather have my mechanic do so yeah, managed to get the bike to his shop with both callipers half hanging off (because I broke my only T40 bit and couldn't get the rest of the bolts off) and have left it there so he's got a nice little surprise when he gets to work in the morning.
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[NJD]

Probably sensible to hand it over at this point. I'd go for mechanical neglect over anything suddenly breaking. In my limited experience (comparative to others) I see little reason, or an obvious cause, as to why breaks would physically jam on beside regular cleaning being avoided.

Its with your friend, anyway, and so speculation or comment is near pointless.

[DUCAUDI]

I take your point. When I say Strap-On (or Snap-On, if you insist!) I'm probably more likely to buy Blue Point as the prices are FAR more affordable. Not sure how the warranty works with Blue Point though, is it the same as Strap-On just take it to the van for a no hassle replacement with no receipt required? I'm not good at keeping receipts and relocating them years later!
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[MCN]

Snap On aye get a bad trip from nae sayers who probably don't have to rely on tools.
As far as my experience with tools goes.
Snap On possibly carry the most extensive range of tools.
99.9% of the tools they make are hard to beat as far as performance and craftsmanship in manufacturing.

They began making aircraft mechanic tools and developed from there.

There are alternatives but I would always buy snap on.
The main criticism is that they seem to only be sold from vans. Never in the shops. Weird.
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Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN.

[DUCAUDI]

What about Blue Point? How do they compare? And is the warranty the same?
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2023 DucAudi Mehrstraße V4 Hechte Gipfel - "Objectively the best motorcycle ever produced" - "You can have any colour, as long as it's red"
2021 Honda CMX500 Rebel S

[MCN]

[DUCAUDI]

[Shaft]

[Islander]

I've got a Teng Tool 26 piece combination spanner set and really can't fault the quality. Expensive but worth it IMO.

[steve the grease]

I'm agreeing with ' Shaft' here. The whole snap on model works on getting young mechanics signed up for credit for a fucking massive tool box and tools, and them calling in and getting payments every week for ....ever. They can't be bothered to stop at my place because I just spend £50 on replacing lost/ broken stuff and pay for the stuff I have. Like these so called car warehouses it's all about selling credit. A lot of the stuff is no longer made in the US but made in guess where ... China.
Blue point is the budget range and also for European specific stuff that frankly they don't make but buy in. They don't want to offer the snap on warrenty on it so its sold under the BP brand . It's too fucking dear , I prefer Facom.
10 sockets 10mm to 19mm - £150 Yer avin a larf.
____________________
All the above is my personal opinion, you can see my lips move, but I'm talking out of my arse.
I've been riding, and fixing , bikes for 50 years, in that time the more I learn, the less I am absolutely sure of.....

[bikenut]

Truth time, I only have 4 snap on tools, a long nose pliers, which the tip broke off, so ground to match, a quarter drive rachet I found in an old car, a 10 X 1.25 plug tap and die.

I saw the snap on van at a local Garage and needed the tap and die there and then, expensive.

The next time a saw the van I took the long nose pliers to him. I told him what happened 35 years ago when the pliers broke. He looked at them, mulled it over and replaced them.

I think I had him over a barrel as the van had a few young budding mechanics in it at the time. How could he refuses ??!

I was given a blue point 3/8 socket set which is used daily and still performing well.

The Halfords sockets seem good and performing well, the combo spanners, open jaws seem not so good as they seem to "spread" but are gauranteed, must take the poor fit ones back for exchange next time I'm heading that way..

Halfords Spanners/ sockets etc. We're made by omerod or a similar name, from memory...
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nuts about bikes

[DUCAUDI]