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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Direct access training Reply with quote

My lad is currently riding a 125 on L-plates and wants to progress to his full 'A' licence ASAP. He's looking at a training school for this summer, who reckon he'll probably need 5 days to get him through MOD 1 and MOD 2, and rather than do this as a 'block' they are saying he should come in for a day here, a day there to do the training.

Personally I have no experience of this stuff, having passed my own test 40 years ago simply by riding twice around the block, but what do people think of this plan? I'd have thought that he'd be better off turning up at the training centre, moving to a big bike and practising on that till he's passed his tests? Isn't it going to be really off-putting going back to pootling around on his 125 for another week or so before returning for another day's training on a big bike?

Interested to hear other's experiences.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in my experience it isn't. Get some advice and guidance for the Mods 1 and 2, go back and practice stuff - albeit on a 125. Let's be honest, the only difference is the weight. Best not to understate this too much, but I simply mean that a 125 and 600 are - for the purposes of the Mod 1, and most of the Mod 2, not that different. It's not like you can open the 600 up and cane fvck out of it.

Is he practising his Mod 1 drills in the layout and ground plans the test requires? Is he shortening the cone gaps, and the u-turn dimensions? Is he watching youtube crap about how testers expect learners to ride and manoeuvre? Doing all this on a 125 regularly, in between lessons on the big bike, is almost never going to harm the reinforcement and, or, development of his riding skills.

tl;dr - I didn't do and intensive block, and although it did sometimes feel like I was getting milked, it was actually for the best, I think.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Re: Direct access training Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
My lad


How old is he? He has to be 24 to do DAS.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 19:53 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Re: Direct access training Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
How old is he?
25 Thumbs Up
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Keithy
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a 2 day CBT then straight to 5 day DAS, but that is with zero experience on 2 wheels with an engine.

A part of me thinks that if you are 125ing between lessons then apart from the difference between the power/handling you should ace it with less than 5 days.

OTOH I’m a fan of immersing yourself in it, taking the jump forward and not going back so I would be much more in favour of a 4 or 5 day wodge of training.

I can’t imagine a 125 now, if only because of the lack of torque.
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spongefinger
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Das Reply with quote

It may be they simply can't fit a block in for him. I know the school I'm using is experiencing huge demand for CBT and das and are struggling to find enough training slots. I've got my mod 2 in June and I've only managed to get one four hour session booked before I go. Although I believe that should be enough as we did some mod 2 training when I did mod 1.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 15 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bring him to portsmouth and i'll get him through in 4 days if he has his CBT.

I do 2 days training before mod 1, Then mod 1 with the rest of the day loose mod 2 prep. Then a week later a day intensive mod 2 polish with mod 2.

Included in my training are national speed limit country roads and dual carriageway with overtaking.

Trouble is, we're booked up until mid Aug at the earliest.
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BRUN
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 16 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

i found having a 125 to use at home, between lessons, really helped me, i could practice what i was being told on my lessons

the crash course 4-5 day intensive thing wasnt for me, needed to fit around my work, and also take things at my own pace, as having never been on a bike before my CBT its all new to me and need time to digest what ive been taught each time, so my lessons are sometimes weeks apart, in fact due to covid some have been months and months apart

i could be wrong, and a 4-5 day thing could have had me passed a long time ago, but i felt better about spacing it out a bit and was much easier around work too, booking a half day off here and there

you soon get used to the difference in power and weight from the 600 on the next lesson, within the first few mins your adjusted i find
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 16 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all - this is reassuring!
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the exact same situation at the moment so I will go on my own first-hand experience.

I am doing my DAS and I got a 125cc that I use for commuting and to be honest if I could go back in time I wouldn't have bought the 125cc and just did the DAS alone.

For me there was too massive a difference between the 125cc and the 650cc that I have been doing the DAS on. I actually prefer the 650cc it is far more forgiving than the 125cc.

Another thing that became apparent was that between my CBT and my DAS day 1, I had been riding the 125cc unsupervised and had picked up a load of bad habits. You don't realise the rear brake on a 125cc is shit until you are on an SV650 and you've already conditioned yourself to the uselessness of the rear brake on the 125 and rely on the front brake. Suddenly the rear brake on the SV650 is genuinely the only one you need if you plan your ride.

Then again, maybe this is all because of my individual circumstances and I am complete shit at the fundamental level.

I failed my MOD 1 but I think that was my own personal nerves that got the best of me and I didn't listen to the instruction that was given to me in the practice sessions on going wide on the figure of eight to give myself room.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Suddenly the rear brake on the SV650 is genuinely the only one you need if you plan your ride.


Shocked You don't wan't to try that on my GSXR. 12 pistons and a pair of big floating disks up front compared to 2 pistons and a crappy little disk at the back.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Suddenly the rear brake on the SV650 is genuinely the only one you need if you plan your ride.


Shocked You don't wan't to try that on my GSXR. 12 pistons and a pair of big floating disks up front compared to 2 pistons and a crappy little disk at the back.


Fair enough, when I was on the SV650 I felt that engine braking and the rear brake were more than enough. I was only lightly touching the front brake lever so that the rear light would come on during engine braking.

I don't know if it's simply because it's a bigger bike and needs bigger brakes but the rear brake on the SV650 felt really good to me. My Zontes uses Bosch brakes but they feel like nothing in comparison.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

YMMV or Your Stopping Distance May Vary Wink

Much the same as the SV, given its weight you could feasibly do an emergency stop on the MT-07/XSR700 with just the rear brake, in ideal conditions. But on that last part it's a bad habit to get into: ABS kicking in = fail if it can be avoided as my old instructor used to say.
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BRUN
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
I am in the exact same situation at the moment so I will go on my own first-hand experience.

I am doing my DAS and I got a 125cc that I use for commuting and to be honest if I could go back in time I wouldn't have bought the 125cc and just did the DAS alone.

For me there was too massive a difference between the 125cc and the 650cc that I have been doing the DAS on. I actually prefer the 650cc it is far more forgiving than the 125cc.

Another thing that became apparent was that between my CBT and my DAS day 1, I had been riding the 125cc unsupervised and had picked up a load of bad habits. You don't realise the rear brake on a 125cc is shit until you are on an SV650 and you've already conditioned yourself to the uselessness of the rear brake on the 125 and rely on the front brake. Suddenly the rear brake on the SV650 is genuinely the only one you need if you plan your ride.

Then again, maybe this is all because of my individual circumstances and I am complete shit at the fundamental level.

I failed my MOD 1 but I think that was my own personal nerves that got the best of me and I didn't listen to the instruction that was given to me in the practice sessions on going wide on the figure of eight to give myself room.


some good points in this actually, but i wouldnt say the 125 is more forgiving than the bigger bike, in my experience, far from it, the 125 is so easy to ride, very enjoyable, the 600 im on is quite twitchy on the throttle low down (ER6N)

with how forgiving the front brake is on my 125, i did actually stop using the rear on the 600 briefly as i was not used to using it on the 125, so had to get used to using that again once covid allowed my lessons again

it is possible to pick up bad habits on a 125, but with no covid lockdowns now to give you big gaps between lessons like i had, they should be regular enough to correct anything quickly enough, and the road experience and time in the seat does help
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Suddenly the rear brake on the SV650 is genuinely the only one you need if you plan your ride.


Shocked You don't wan't to try that on my GSXR. 12 pistons and a pair of big floating disks up front compared to 2 pistons and a crappy little disk at the back.

^^^^^
This.

While using primarily the rear is fine on my VFR (and I do just that on my commute, but not on "fun" trips), doing it on the GSX I recently would have you eating hedgerow in fairly short order. Every bike is different, some are ok and have decent rear stoppers, others are a token nod to stabilise the rear and nothing more.
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JustinW
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 17 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the road riding lessons, his 125 will be very useful to practice what he's learnt.
OSMPSL for example (observation signal manouvre ...) for left and right turns, shoulder checks etc.
I found Roadcraft Nottingham videos on YouTube very good for cementing what's required for mod2.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 06:51 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I am not working I never use my rear brake unless I am stopped on a hill.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was doing my DAS I was taught that the front brake is for shedding a lot of speed in a straight line and the rear brake is for control and finesse.

They made the point to use the rear brake and engine braking approaching lights, etc so that it gives drivers behind plenty warning you will be stopping. Also that when you're only using engine braking you should lightly apply the front brake lever so that while the brake is not engaging it is showing a red light so you don't get rear-ended by someone who doesn't realise you're slowing down.

Maybe I have interpreted the use of the rear brake wrong and that it's only for use in slow control?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
When I was doing my DAS I was taught that the front brake is for shedding a lot of speed in a straight line and the rear brake is for control and finesse.

They made the point to use the rear brake and engine braking approaching lights, etc so that it gives drivers behind plenty warning you will be stopping. Also that when you're only using engine braking you should lightly apply the front brake lever so that while the brake is not engaging it is showing a red light so you don't get rear-ended by someone who doesn't realise you're slowing down.

Maybe I have interpreted the use of the rear brake wrong and that it's only for use in slow control?


Brake lights are to warn you about rapid decceleration. If you can't recognise that vehicles slow down when not on the throttle you have no business driving.....
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 19 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Brake lights are to warn you about rapid decceleration. If you can't recognise that vehicles slow down when not on the throttle you have no business driving.....


While you're right, it won't help when the dozy fucker behind you in an Astra mows you down because he was texting/turning up the radio/ogling women. I tap the back brake if purely engine braking, which I do a lot on the viffer. Doesn't add any extra stopping power, but lights up the rear end to warn them, but not much you can do past that.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 19 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
When I am not working I never use my rear brake unless I am stopped on a hill.

Interestingly when I did my advanced test last year (RoSPA) the examiner chastised me for doing that - he said I should have my left foot covering the gear shift, and manage the hill start using just front brake/throttle

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Brake lights are to warn you about rapid decceleration. If you can't recognise that vehicles slow down when not on the throttle you have no business driving.....

While you're right, it won't help when the dozy fucker behind you in an Astra mows you down because he was texting/turning up the radio/ogling women.

Exactly that nearly happened to me recently; tooling along in suburban traffic at 30, and eased off slightly because a van pulled out on me from a side road. I'd have hit him had I not done so, but Van 2 behind me was evidently totally oblivious (busy ogling?) to both the other van, and me slowing down, and I was rewarded with a 3-second horn blast as he just slowed down in time Rolling Eyes Lesson learned for me, anyway - show a brake light next time.
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RederOr
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 10 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:


Brake lights are to warn you about rapid decceleration. If you can't recognise that vehicles slow down when not on the throttle you have no business driving.....

I was also told on during my DAS to use gently rear brake when slowing down - just to activate braking light. I wasn't convinced but I did so, until started riding my v-strom and I noticed that just releasing the throttle gives me braking force comparable to a car slowing down with brakes (well, not fully applied of course). It is just to show ppl you are slowing down so they don't park in your ass Wink
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:01 - 10 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

RederOr wrote:
I was also told on during my DAS to use gently rear brake when slowing down - just to activate braking light. I wasn't convinced but I did so, until started riding my v-strom and I noticed that just releasing the throttle gives me braking force comparable to a car slowing down with brakes (well, not fully applied of course). It is just to show ppl you are slowing down so they don't park in your ass Wink


Very similar to what I was taught on DAS, but I was told to use the front brake because the brake light illuminates at the slightest touch before the brakes themselves started to engage.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 10 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's definitely worth "showing a light" if you're coming into a 30 limit and you've got someone up your arse, and - more specifically - if you're planning on actually doing 30 as soon as you get into the 30

fwiw I'd guess I do 30 in a 30 about 95% of the time, and probably the same for 40 limits (although holy fuck do I get pissed off with the long exits villages have, where the 40 limit goes on for half a mile or more with no properties either side and no actual hazards - I do often treat those with contempt).

in 20s I'll do 20

in NSLs on single carriageway roads i tend to treat those 60 limits as advisory lol, esp. single width back lanes
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 29 Jun 2021    Post subject: Re: Direct access training Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
My lad is currently riding a 125 on L-plates and wants to progress to his full 'A' licence ASAP.

Just reviving this thread to say that aformentioned lad past his Mod 2 (ie 'A' licence) this morning Clapping

He ended up doing the training it in dribs and drabs at evening and weekends rather than as a block, and passed all the stages first time. Am now looking forward to some father-son rideouts at over 45 mph... Laughing
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