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E10 petrol

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photoman
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PostPosted: 19:20 - 28 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackButler wrote:


No one on BCF has as yet demonstrated the slightest bit of knowledge of our modern petrol & what the problems we face are. .


Actually you are wrong. I quoted from a HM Govt website some posts ago where they give a list of the bikes and other vehicles that may be under threat. Just google something like E10 fuel what vehicles are affected.

If you cannot find it or be bothered to look here is a shortcut:- https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 28 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*
Both of my bikes are basically pre-90s.
How is this going to cause me problems?
(words of one syllable or less, thank you)

Where on the pump will it say "super unleaded"?
FFS. Brick Wall
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photoman
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PostPosted: 20:12 - 28 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
*sigh*
Both of my bikes are basically pre-90s.
How is this going to cause me problems?
(words of one syllable or less, thank you)

Where on the pump will it say "super unleaded"?
FFS. Brick Wall


I think if your bike is pre 1990 then it will be a good move to replace all the fuel tubing. Since 2011 all vehicle fuel tubing has been Ethanol
resistant (not absolute proof). There is also a question about floats in carburettors if they are made from plastic they may be damaged., Also float needles may need changing regularly.

If you bikes are injected, the seals on the injectors may decompose earlier than before. Also with injected bikes the fuel hoses are subject to higher pressures so it advisable to replace them regularly.

I filled my car up this afternoon and the pumps had changed to E10 (95 octane) with the option of E5 (97 Octane). There was no mention of the word 'Super Unleaded' on the pump.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 28 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Super unleaded” is not an official nomenclature; it’s more a generic term to describe higher octane fuel. Most suppliers have a ‘regular’ petrol which is 95 RON and a ‘special’ (expensive) alternative which is higher RON (could be 97, 98, 99…). The trouble is not all petrol stations have special fuel.

However all fuels are marked with their ethanol content, so it should be easy to distinguish an E10 fuel from an E5 (if offered).
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 28 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Super unleaded" is the term used in the Motor Fuel Composition Regulations to describe higher octane premium fuel sold to the consumer at the pump. Different companies have different trade names for it, but it's all super unleaded petrol regardless of differences in chemical composition, as long it fits the bill. It could have an octane rating of 97, 98 or 99. If you have any doubts about ethanol, or run a classic bike, then as long as you stick to the one that's labelled "E5", you should be OK. Probably. In theory.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 07:07 - 29 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
Both of my bikes are basically pre-90s.

Use them regularly, don't let them sit for weeks with fuel in the tank (Ethanol attracts water, which causes rust & gunk in your tank). Use fuel with a lower percentage of ethanol in it.
Unless you fancy replacing fuel lines and carb parts, or getting into the mucky bit involved in removing the ethanol, that's about all you can do.
I know people that run early VFR's (86-89), original fuel lines and have no issue, but they don't stand around and look pretty, they get ridden a couple of times a week.
If the bike *is* going to stand around, drain the tank (yes, you can do that, you're not that bad).

hellkat wrote:
Where on the pump will it say "super unleaded"?

Use whatever "premium" fuel is at the garage for the immediate future, that will be the stuff with a lower percentage of Ethanol in it. This almost certainly will change in the future.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 29 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

E10 has been in fuel stations round my way for at least a month, maybe two, and I haven’t switched my ‘99 Kawasaki to ‘Super’ even though it’s on the ‘at risk’ list. Too soon to see any ill-effects, but I’m going to check the hoses at some point, and I’ll just have to deal with any carb issues if they arise.

This thing about ethanol attracting water though, I know ethanol and water mix (a G&T depends on it) but I don’t think it actively pulls water in. The airspace in the tank will form condensate which drips into the fuel. (For that reason I brim the tank on lay-ups.) Normally it will sink to the bottom, but add alcohol and it will be dispersed. Now what’s worse, a cumulative layer of water in contact with (maybe rusting) the bottom of the tank and not going anywhere, or water held within the fuel and drawn out through carbs/injectors in trace amounts.

I suspect the Silkolene Pro-FST (mostly iso-propanol) I add to the tank to reduce carb-icing works on the same principle. In fact I’ve never questioned whether iso-propanol (very similar to ethanol) is safe to use, and I’ve used it for years (in Winter).
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photoman
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 29 Aug 2021    Post subject: Effects of Ethanol Reply with quote

As it has been mentioned ethanol attracts water like a magnet and with bikes with injection systems, the fuel that has water in it will clog a fuel filter very quickly then the usually paper element ​collapses internally

Usually a fuel filter will need changing perhaps every 2 years or so depending on how many miles you cover so it may be a good idea to make these changes more frequently. The blackening is entirely due to water being sucked into a fuel filter element The filter came off an elderly K75 that had stood in the rain for some time and then used again. The sparkly bits are only from my hacksaw cutting the filter in half.

Normally even a well used element should remain brown

PS the bike was not mine, I was only asked to look at it when it stopped and refused to start.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 29 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Effects of Ethanol Reply with quote

I need to be more assertive.

photoman wrote:
ethanol attracts water like a magnet

It does not.

Forget water ingress (that happens anyway), forget the effect of ethanol on octane rating (you won’t notice the difference), the concern is over a 5% increase in a solvent which may attack certain plastics over time.
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JackButler
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 30 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Effects of Ethanol Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I need to be more assertive.

photoman wrote:
ethanol attracts water like a magnet

It does not.

Forget water ingress (that happens anyway), forget the effect of ethanol on octane rating (you won’t notice the difference), the concern is over a 5% increase in a solvent which may attack certain plastics over time.


So ethanol isn't hygroscopic then?

Someone needs to tell the rest of the internets it's wrong.
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droog
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 30 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
*sigh*
Both of my bikes are basically pre-90s.
How is this going to cause me problems?
(words of one syllable or less, thank you)

Where on the pump will it say "super unleaded"?
FFS. Brick Wall


This fuel additive was mentioned on the other E10 thread - seems to help prevent E10 related damage on older vehicles - could be worth checking out?

https://www.frost.co.uk/ethomix-corrosion-inhibitor-additive-ethanol-protection/#reviews
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 30 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Effects of Ethanol Reply with quote

JackButler wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I need to be more assertive.

photoman wrote:
ethanol attracts water like a magnet

It does not.

Forget water ingress (that happens anyway), forget the effect of ethanol on octane rating (you won’t notice the difference), the concern is over a 5% increase in a solvent which may attack certain plastics over time.


So ethanol isn't hygroscopic then?

Someone needs to tell the rest of the internets it's wrong.


Mmmm… semantics, especially in this petroleum blend context. Ethanol is miscible with water but there isn’t a particularly strong phenomenon like a capillary action drawing water towards it. It’s not a common desiccant. Miscibility works in our favour as already explained.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:47 - 30 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest that, as petrol is quite volatile anyway, most of the space in the tank not filled with liquid petrol will be mostly filled with petrol vapour

The small amount of atmospheric air in the tank would have a vanishingly small amount of water in it.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 30 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the third or forth time Rolling Eyes Yes, Ethanol has a thing for water but unless you're going to lay up your bike for months and months not draining the fuel tank (which is a safety issue in itself) it's not a major factor.

Metal corrosion due to Ethanol is also a thing but going from E5 to E10 is not going to drastically accelerate things to the point where it outweighs say... I dunno... checking you have oil!

Of immediate concern might be plastic fuel tanks but that topic should have been put to bed when E5 came out.

Probably the only tangible change would be some old bike with gaskets, o-rings, seals, etc. that don't like Ethanol. These things were already degrading with E5 but if it was an occasional jaunt bike one might be forgiven for not noticing any drastic failure. E10 will only serve to accelerate the degradation. i.e. crying over E10 is pointless, whatever problem you suddenly have would have just taken longer to appear with E5.
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Jim Mc
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PostPosted: 10:21 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a common point of failure will be vacuum taps. On my 125 the fuel line is gravity fed but theres a vacuum tap operated by piston suction which allows the fuel to flow from the tank to the carb. There is a thin diaphragm inside the tap which the suction operates on, I ended up sticking a bottle of STP in the tank once and destroyed the diaphragm so they seem quite prone to issues.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm worried about chainsaws and the like now, Stihl say they will run perfectly well but carbs may need adjusting to regain some power.
However they say not to leave fuel in the tank and not to use fuel stored more than 30 days.
They sell their own ethanol free fuel called motomix which is stable for much longer.

It seems like this so called greener fuel means you will actually use more fuel and will lead to a lot of early replacements due to gradual damage to engine parts
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

By engine parts you mean hoses and seals in the fuelling system?

It's not going to damage engines nasty such.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
I'm worried about chainsaws and the like now, Stihl say they will run perfectly well but carbs may need adjusting to regain some power.
However they say not to leave fuel in the tank and not to use fuel stored more than 30 days.


Just use super unleaded and put in some stabiliser if it's not going to be used for a while, same as you would on anything else.

edit: This is what I use every winter. Never fails. https://www.sta-bil.co.uk/products/sta-bil-storage-fuel-stabilizer-4-sizes
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Last edited by xX-Alex-Xx on 11:59 - 01 Sep 2021; edited 1 time in total
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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
By engine parts you mean hoses and seals in the fuelling system?

It's not going to damage engines nasty such.

It's the carbs are going to suffer small two strokes can be temperamental at best of times it is often difficult getting them to start after winter laid up.
How many owners are going to empty the tank let alone drain carbs.
Typically you don't know when you will next use a chainsaw so won't be doing that just in case..
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this 'winter layup' of which you speak?

Tbh I've not been hearing dire stories of woe from France and Germany about this issue and they changed to e10 a few years back.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
What is this 'winter layup' of which you speak?

Tbh I've not been hearing dire stories of woe from France and Germany about this issue and they changed to e10 a few years back.

I don't strim grass in winter and do less chainsawing in summer.
It's reading advice from stihl has me worried, especially since it's typical modern double speak which says it's Ok but not Ok.
https://blog.stihl.co.uk/how-will-e10-petrol-affect-your-stihl-chainsaw/
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 2 years, 209 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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