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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Hi All,

I have come to biking somewhat late in life (DOB 6/12/37) and made the assumption that I would have to ride a 125cc bike initially so I purchased a 125cc bike.

When I examined my licence, however, I saw that it is a Class A Provisional, not A1 or A2. On the "GOV.UK" site I queried what vehicle I was allowed to drive and got the following: -

"You can drive a motorcycle of a power exceeding 35kW or.....a motorcycle of a power not exceeding 35kW...."

In other words, subject to CBT, Tax and Insurance, any size of bike I fancy. I think I will stick with the 125cc until I have completed my CBT, (due this time next month), as I am getting used to it by doing regular "off public road" practice.

Now to my questions: -

What test would I need to take to convert my provisional "A" to a full "A"?

Would I have to take this test on a larger bike, or could it be done on my 125cc?

I have arranged fully comp insurance to start at the beginning of September, when I will also tax it. Assuming that my current insurance is £nnn does anybody have an idea of what sort of factor my insurance premium would increase by when changing the bike for a larger one? e.g. 250cc = 2 X £nnn, 500cc = 4 x £nnn.

I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?

Any advice would be most welcome, including best bikes for a novice. I don't expect to be going anywhere near 1000cc or have any model that has a suffix "R" after its type designation.

Stay safe on the road,

Tony Norton
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Hi All,

I have come to biking somewhat late in life (DOB 6/12/37) and made the assumption that I would have to ride a 125cc bike initially so I purchased a 125cc bike.

When I examined my licence, however, I saw that it is a Class A Provisional, not A1 or A2. On the "GOV.UK" site I queried what vehicle I was allowed to drive and got the following: -

"You can drive a motorcycle of a power exceeding 35kW or.....a motorcycle of a power not exceeding 35kW...."

In other words, subject to CBT, Tax and Insurance, any size of bike I fancy. I think I will stick with the 125cc until I have completed my CBT, (due this time next month), as I am getting used to it by doing regular "off public road" practice.

Now to my questions: -

What test would I need to take to convert my provisional "A" to a full "A"?

Would I have to take this test on a larger bike, or could it be done on my 125cc?

I have arranged fully comp insurance to start at the beginning of September, when I will also tax it. Assuming that my current insurance is £nnn does anybody have an idea of what sort of factor my insurance premium would increase by when changing the bike for a larger one? e.g. 250cc = 2 X £nnn, 500cc = 4 x £nnn.

I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?

Any advice would be most welcome, including best bikes for a novice. I don't expect to be going anywhere near 1000cc or have any model that has a suffix "R" after its type designation.

Stay safe on the road,

Tony Norton


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't just go out and get any bike you fancy and ride it solo mate. You can buy any you like, but driving it you will need to be under the supervision of an approved instructor at all times, have your own valid insurance on it and have L plates attached.

For the avoidance of doubt, I also had a provisional A license having never done anything to do with a motorcycle. It just comes with your full UK manual B (car) license.

Regarding your questions:

1. You would need to do everything that anyone else would on DAS. Get your CBT, do your motorcycle theory test, take your MOD 1 then take you MOD 2,

2. If you jump through all the hoops I mentioned earlier about your own bike, insurance, etc you can do MOD 1 and MOD 2 on your own bike if you have it taken on a trailer to the test centres. Otherwise the best option is to simply use a school's bikes and do DAS.

As a final note after doing CBT the only size bike you can ride unsupervised is a 125cc.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Norton? 85 years old?

Fuck off, mate.
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You can buy any you like, but driving it you will need to be under the supervision of an approved instructor at all times".

Thanks for the quick response, but I must admit that I am somewhat surprised that the "GOV.UK" site doesn't say anything about needing to be supervised when riding a 35kW+ bike. It implies that, having done the CBT anything goes, subject, of course, to legal requirements.

Is "MOD2" the same test as one would do via "DAS"? If so what are my options? Mod1, then Mod2, after theory of course, or DAS. I can understand the need to be riding a larger bike for DAS, but have just read on a government site that this is being reduced to 250cc subject to the power output being 35kW+. My YS125-5C is alleged to be capable of 70mph which should be sufficient for any test.

Is there something I am not understanding? Could you please give me a link to the "GOV.UK" page that says I would have to be supervised on a larger machine.

Cheers
Tony
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Wind your neck in Nobby the Bastard. Reply with quote

I've probably done more things at speed than you've ever dreamed of. Flown a plane, raced single seaters and more. I tjhought bikers were supposed to be a friendly bunch, but there's always one wanker who's the exception to the rule.
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Nobby the Bastard
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Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are a nice bunch but an 85 year old even using the Internet let alone deciding to start riding bikes?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:53 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just realised this account was created in 2007. Ignore me. As you were etc.....
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 18:16 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
When I examined my licence, however, I saw that it is a Class A Provisional, not A1 or A2. On the "GOV.UK" site I queried what vehicle I was allowed to drive and got the following: -

"You can drive a motorcycle of a power exceeding 35kW or.....a motorcycle of a power not exceeding 35kW...."


Motorcycle licensing is now (I think deliberately) confusing as hell. But a "provisional A class" license is not an A class license, and doing a CBT alone doesn't turn it into one.

What it means (and I'm definitely not an expert so others may know better) is that if you go through the series of tests (CBT, theory, MOD1 and MOD2) to get a full license, the licence you end up with at the end will be an A licence (i.e. not power limited like A1 and A2 licences). That's good, but you'll still need to do all the tests.

This may or may not make things clearer. It does say you only need to do part 2 of the test which I think is MOD2, and doesn't mention part 1 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/771244/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-licence.pdf
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it this way: if you have a provisional car driving licence you have to go out with L plates and an instructor. Before I got my licence I was on an MT07 with L plates and an instructor riding behind me.

If you didn't have at least "Provisional Class A" how would you ever be able to get on the road?
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
We are a nice bunch but an 85 year old even using the Internet let alone deciding to start riding bikes?


Or being aufait and proficient with the word Whanker - mind you that's a prerequisite for surviving here ....

@Tony

From an admittedly limited understanding of old licenses, i think you have basic moped rights with no L plates and without the need for CBT.

https://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/uk-motorcycle-laws/ categories here

Also check when you last had your license renewed that the other Whankers ( they are everywhere) at the DVLA didn't remove some of your grandfather rights if you didn't expressly ask them to remain. Your license may not be what it was in terms of entitlement.

You must have a current CBT to ride bigger than a moped. But you cannot ride anything above a 125CC on your own and you must have L plates. Yes you can ride something 'bigger' with L plates but only with a qualified instructor until you have passed your test. You can take a test on your 125 but why bother when you could take it on something bigger.

It's a Class A license you want to get. Then you can choose what you want to ride without L plates, be it 125 / 500 / 1000.

"There are two ways of getting an A class bike licence – sometimes referred to as DAS or Direct Access Course.

At age 21+ having held a full A2 licence for a minimum of 2 years
At age 24+
The test and training must be taken on a machine of a minimum engine size of 595cc that must produce at least 40 kW (54 Bhp)."

I would find a good local bike school and go through it with them. They will tell you what you need to take / pass and will be able to tell you what's legally involved.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 01:43 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Thanks for the quick response, but I must admit that I am somewhat surprised that the "GOV.UK" site doesn't say anything about needing to be supervised when riding a 35kW+ bike. It implies that, having done the CBT anything goes, subject, of course, to legal requirements.

Is "MOD2" the same test as one would do via "DAS"? If so what are my options? Mod1, then Mod2, after theory of course, or DAS. I can understand the need to be riding a larger bike for DAS, but have just read on a government site that this is being reduced to 250cc subject to the power output being 35kW+. My YS125-5C is alleged to be capable of 70mph which should be sufficient for any test.

Is there something I am not understanding? Could you please give me a link to the "GOV.UK" page that says I would have to be supervised on a larger machine.

Cheers
Tony


With respect, you are misinterpreting the point of provisional licensing. You need a provisional A category on your license so you can ride an A class motorcycle during lessons and tests. It’s the same as when you went for a car license you would have a provisional B license until you passed your test. If nobody was provisionally licensed it would be impossible for them to learn, etc.

Just because your photo card is red doesn’t mean you have any special privileges over and above a green provisional one. The only reason you are provisionally an A is due to you being over 24 years old.

DAS is the Direct Access Scheme and is the framework under which you can get a full A license without having previously held an A1 or A2 license. DAS courses are administered by individual schools who give you lessons and let you use their bikes for the tests themselves.

Strictly speaking you can opt not to do DAS and buy your own motorcycle, get it insured, put L plates on it and get it taken on a trailer to the tests.

You will need to do all of the following, in order or occurrence and requirement (cannot proceed to next stage with all of the preceding steps):

1. CBT (Compulsory Basic Training),
2. Motorcycle Theory Test,
3. MOD 1 Test,
4. MOD 2 Test.

If you get your own A class motorcycle and try to ride it without doing the above, you’ll be doing it illegally. You might get away with it, then again you might not and a single pull from the police will mean your days as a motorcyclist end as quickly as they began. Furthermore without the right license you’d be lying to your insurance and you’d be found out in the event of a claim.

On the subject of doing the tests on your 125cc you certainly can, but it would be pointless as you would be condemning yourself to only ever riding 125cc bikes on an A1 license as the bike didn’t meet the requirements for category A.

Please get in touch with a local school to you and get your license properly, it’s simply not worth the hassle if you get caught riding illegally.
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 07:48 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Hi All,

Thanks to all for your comments and advice, particularly the "Scotsman " (You don't sound at all angry to me, and I wouldn't venture to comment on your physical appearance.), I particularly liked the clear, logical, outlining of the necessary steps towards a full "A" licence. I will discuss DAS with my instructor after my CBT on 16-9-21, wish me luck!.

To "Nobby the Bastard", your slightly conciliatory later posts lead me to believe that your initial "Foxtrot Oscar" comment was more a John McEnroe type "You cannot be serious!" rather than a "Go forth and multiply". As for my using the internet, I got my first PC, for CAD work, in 1985, possibly before you were born, (your profile is very limited, indicating a desire for anonymity. I hope you're not a Facebook troll), when the OS was MSDOS and one needed to be able to read and write to use one. Since the 1990s whenever updates were necessary, or desirable, I have been building my own PCs to my own spec. I think that qualifies me to use the internet, don't you?

Once again, thanks to all, and looking forward to the freedom of the open road on 2 wheels.

Tony
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your linguistic competence.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 08:43 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just bewieldered that an 85 yo would suddenly take it into their head to get a bike.

Can't see I'll be doing it at that age and I'm 50.

Oh, and the clue is in the name....
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Hi All,

Thanks to all for your comments and advice, particularly the "Scotsman " (You don't sound at all angry to me, and I wouldn't venture to comment on your physical appearance.), I particularly liked the clear, logical, outlining of the necessary steps towards a full "A" licence. I will discuss DAS with my instructor after my CBT on 16-9-21, wish me luck!.

Once again, thanks to all, and looking forward to the freedom of the open road on 2 wheels.

Tony


Good luck, let us know how you get on!
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
looking forward to the freedom of the open road on 2 wheels.


If you don't get a Norton and call it Tony, then I'll be very disappointed with you.

PS Welcome - it's nice that I won't be the oldest person here anymore. Wink
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 14:07 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:


I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?


Two things will affect price more than anything else (assuming you aren't going to move location to get a better deal.)

1) Age. After about 37 insurance prices drop more dramatically than thenm do at, say 25

2) How long you have had a full license.

Engine capacity does have an effect but it's minimal compared to the others. I've got a litre and my insurance is about £160 a year fully comp. It actually went down fractionally a couple of years ago when I ended up on 9 points...
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Two things will affect price more than anything else (assuming you aren't going to move location to get a better deal.)

1) Age. After about 37 insurance prices drop more dramatically than thenm do at, say 25

Yeah not sure that still applies once you get to 85 though...
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:

I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?


When I upgraded from 125 to 600, my insurance went down!

I think 125s are possibly loaded because Noobs.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
Tony Norton wrote:

I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?


When I upgraded from 125 to 600, my insurance went down!

I think 125s are possibly loaded because Noobs.


Same, my ER6-F is cheaper to insure than my ZT125-U.
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KiwiBob
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you passed your car test years ago your licence may have code 79(3) in column 12 after the letter A.

If it does you can ride a trike or motorcycle combo of any cc.
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TaffyTDM
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Tony Norton wrote:


I realise that insurance premiums are influenced by many factors, but I guess that many of you will have started on smaller bikes and then changed to larger ones. What effect did the change have on your premiums?


Two things will affect price more than anything else (assuming you aren't going to move location to get a better deal.)

1) Age. After about 37 insurance prices drop more dramatically than thenm do at, say 25

2) How long you have had a full license.

Engine capacity does have an effect but it's minimal compared to the others. I've got a litre and my insurance is about £160 a year fully comp. It actually went down fractionally a couple of years ago when I ended up on 9 points...



There is a logic to this. Clearly if you ride in a style that stacks the points up or an instaban (the sort of stuff that makes you feature on the local traffic police Twitter as stop of the month) and still havent had a prang you are clearly amazeballs and deserve a hefty discount
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was supposed to be an instaban but I got time off for 'not being an annoying cunt in court.'
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Keithy
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other consideration is the relative weight of a 650 (or larger) compared to a 125. Unless you are keeping fit you may struggle to wrestle a bigger bike around?
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struan80
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you weren't confused before I bet you are now.
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