Advice needed for a newbie

[blurredman]

I can confirm the above concerning CCM. A friend of mine has a spitfire. He will be getting (if not already) the frame replaced due to the above.
____________________
CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S.
Current: 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (bored to 295cc) - 38k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 49k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9k, 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k.

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[ThunderGuts]

I just looked up the bike requirements for doing your test . . . as I suspected, they (oddly) don't align with what the resulting licence will grant you to ride, but I've actually learned a few other things too.

So, to do an A test, your bike needs to be ALL of the following; at least 595cc, produce at least 67bhp and weigh at least 175kg. The Spitfire falls down on both of the last two points (55bhp and 135kg respectively).

To do an A2 test, your bike can't exceed 0.2kW per kilo, the Spitfire exceeds this (thanks to it's light weight).

In short, it would appear to be impossible to do any test on the CCM Spitfire! This would also explain why the SV650 is so popular with riding schools; it's just enough power and weight to satisfy the "A" requirements, but not much more.

Linky:

https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-test/motorcycles-mopeds-you-can-use
____________________
TG.

[Fat Angry Scotsman]

[Tony Norton]

Hi ThunderGuts,

you've really thrown a spanner in the works! Where did you find that info?

Oh, just spotted the link, and had a look for myself.

Yes you're right. The Bobber is actually 629cc (YES), 50Kw (67bhp) (NO - 10Kw short), 175Kg (NO - 40Kg light).

Just been on the blower with Craig at CCM. Reckons he has a lady customer collecting a Bobber today ready for her test later on. Good luck with that lady.

You're right also on the A2 test, as the Bobber can't be restricted. Why not I can't imagine, but anyway, that's blown that particular plan out of the water! That is, of course, if the government website is up to date, which they quite often aren't!

I guess the best I can say is, thanks for having saved me a load of dosh, I was on the point of putting in an order for number four hundred and something of the 500 they're doing.

Cheers mate
Tony N

[UncleFester]

See if you can find somewhere that will get you training on a BMW F700/800GS. Or somewhere that let you swing a leg over one. I would presume the F800ST will be very similar.

I'd not want one to own one (dull) but as a thing to learn on it had the option of a low seat. Weight low down in the frame. Upright riding position and a throttle response that didn't want to give you heart failure.

Only criticism was the wide bars - those with short arms might struggle with reaching indicators / clutch control on full lock. I found sitting and leaning a little further forward helped with that.
____________________
Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[ThunderGuts]

[Freddyfruitba...]

[BRUN]

not sure if you saw my suggestion of the Herald Brute, not even sure it fits all your needs, but if interested, MotoBob on YouTube has done a video on it recently, not watched it myself but might be worth a look

iirc it might be a bit overpriced but been a while since i looked at it so could be wrong

would a Bonneville be too heavy ? i have a T120 and i think the listed weight is on the heavy side, but wondering if it might suit as the seat is low, it doesnt feel as heavy as the numbers suggest imo, i can flat foot both sides at the same time with a bend in the knee

they can be restricted for A2 iirc

or maybe a Street Twin ? maybe their not the style of bike your after though ?

[Nobby the Bastard]

A question for you.

If you have no plans to get a heavy, powerful bike why are you bothering to get a licence for one?

Just do an A2 licence.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050

[Tony Norton]

Hi All,

I am now, as it says above. Once again thanks for all your suggestions. Yesterday I thought I had found the one bike that would really do it for me. A Kawasaki Vulcan S 650. For anyone not familiar, it is a cruiser. Nice low seat, pegs, handlebars and foot controls all adjustable. I really felt comfortable sitting on it and the throttle control is fabulous, I could increase the engine speed, from tickover by just 200 rpm. Well controllable. It was used but had only just come in to the dealer, so hadn't been prepped. If it had I'd have bought it there and then. Expecting a call tomorrow to tell me it's ready. That is, until I had to email the vendor with the news that it comes 5Kw under the 50Kw mark for "A" class. Rather odd that, I think it might be a "Z" series 650 engine, which just comes in at 50.2 Kw, detuned. Waiting to hear if it can un-detuned. It looks exactly the same as the 650 parallel twin used on the "Z" series.

If that doesn't work I have resigned myself to possibly having to do "A2" instead. Having a relative who's a major Yamaha dealer my thoughts went to the MT-03. Oh no! Believe it or not, the engine size is too small, 321cc against 395cc, but the power is OK, 31Kw. Whoever draws up these government lists, like most MPs, has never had a proper job. At any rate they know bugger all about motorbikes.

I have read (Gov statement) that the engine size for A2 will be reduced to 245cc but haven't found a date on which this will happen. I expect it to be a long time whilst 75% of the bone idle civil servants are "working from home"!

Cheers
Tony N

[Tony Norton]

Hi Nobby,

the project was more about getting the licence than about which bike I wanted to finish up with. May seem weird to you, but it's my project.

Cheers
Tony

[Nobby the Bastard]

[Easy-X]

No problem with getting an A licence and then riding around on an A2 bike, that's what I did but looking back on I just misunderstood what I was going to get out of a bike.

It seems your fundamental problem is a dislike of the SV650. Do the school have any other bikes you could use? TBF the other most common school bike is the MT07 and that's even more twitchy on the throttle than the Suzuki Or you could change schools but that's not always a practical option.

The Vulcan is definitely an "A" bike but it can be restricted to the official "A2" level neither of which is here nor there if you can't ride it legally for training or the test (i.e. get insurance.)

The cookie cutter template is go to school, use school bike (and school insurance), train, go to test centre, pass test on school bike, buy own bike, profit! Unless you have some specific incapacity needs like a wooden leg and adapted controls no one's all that interested in deviating from the standard template.

I would suggest getting more 1-to-1 training on the SV650 and get a bit more used to it. Pass on that and then get a Vulcan.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[jeffyjeff]

To my knowledge and recollection, the SV650S was known for a snatchy throttle more than the SV650 standard. I also believe that throttle response can be addressed with an aftermarket throttle cable cam.

But I recall that Tony Norton also had issue with foot position on the SV650.
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History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men - BOC

[Tony Norton]

Nobby,

I get the impression I hit a sore spot. Sorry about that.

Easy-X,

Actually the Vulcan is not quite an "A" bike. Engine size OK, weight OK, but 5Kw short on the power front. The vendor of the Vulcan I fell in love with will be talking to my Nephew's guys at Crescent to see if they can put it on the rolling road and get it up to the 50Kw required.
The similar powered Z650 is 50.2Kw. I know though, that I couldn't cope with the SV650, but I will check whether they have any other "A" bikes.

Jeff,

somehow I can't see the school wanting to modify one of their SV650s for me, and I did have an issue with the peg positions. I have no desire to adopt the boy racer "head down, feet back" pseudo racing position. I did all my racing on 4 wheels between 50 and 35 years ago. Now I just want to enjoy the freedom and the sunshine, when we get it!

Thanks for your interest guys.
All the best,
Tony

[Nobby the Bastard]

[Ayrton]

I still think another session on a 650 with a good school and you'd fix the throttle issue and get used to the bike weight. If they school doesn't want to do that then I'd find a different school. Buying a lighter bike and somehow finding a way to insure it for the test seems like a lot of hassle and will just leave you limited on the kind of bikes you will want to buy.

Also I'm not convinced they would accept a dyno output as evidence over what the manufacturer says. They wont even take it as evidence you restricted it for the A2 category.

[Easy-X]

Wow, you need an "A" licence to ride anything over 35kW (any engine capacity) but for the test you need >595cc and >50kW. How did I miss that?! That pegs the SV650 and MT07 as barely getting by

Learning every day
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Zen Dog]

[Tony Norton]

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[UncleFester]

My further two cents.

Find a bike that;

That is license compliant.
You are able to get both feet down on.
That you are comfortable on.
That you fit.

That will make the process immeasurably easier.

I sat on my mates SV650S before I did my test and did not feel comfortable or felt like I fitted. By comparison the old 90s Honda CB500 I bought after passing and the BMW F700 I did the test on fit like a glove.

Good clutch control will moderate a twitchy throttle so something with a light action slip assist clutch will be easier to handle. The ability to slip a clutch is vital for bike control. Not like a car where slipping the clutch is not good for it.

Most bike schools won't have cruisers. It will be ER6N / CB650 ..
Stuff thats cheap to buy / run / fix.

I did mine at BMW rider training in Royston. They were not cheap but the bikes were new and the training was excellent as were the instructors.
____________________
Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[ThunderGuts]

I honestly think, as has been mentioned above several times (including by me), is to press on with training on an "A" bike. If you really really really don't like the SV650, then first speak to the school and see if they have any alternatives. If they don't, they'll probably be able to advise another school for you to try.

The problem you'll have though is the SV650, despite your perception, is not an aggressive position to ride nor is the throttle particularly snatchy (on the newer ones at least, post 2016). Yes, it'll seem aggressive compared with a foot-forward cruiser, everything will. But trying to do your mod 1 exercises on a cruiser will be "fun" (hazard avoidance etc.. which require you to corner moderately quickly and build up some speed on the straight before a quick flick around the cones etc..).

A middleweight naked bike like an SV650 / MT07 and similar are used by riding schools for a reason; they're the easiest bikes generally to learn on as the blend lowish weight, lowish seat height, relatively tame engines and an upright posture that allows for learning the ropes comfortably.

As said, speak to your school and explain your challenges. I know you think otherwise, but learning to ride on your own (especially brand new) bike is not a good idea. It's the most likely time you'll drop a bike and you don't want the added distraction of worrying about denting your pride and joy.

Good luck and keep us posted.
____________________
TG.

[Tony Norton]

Hi guys,

there is merit in all the last 3 comments, even though they are at variance, and I thank you all for them.

I got through my CBT on my, virtually brand new (only 8 miles on the clock) YS125, by practicing, off road, every Wednesday afternoon throughout last summer, aided by some cones and my grandson's advice. I did have, however, have a trailer on which to tow it to the site. Perhaps I was a bit precipitate in selling it post CBT.

With the benefit of hindsight I obviously didn't think far enough ahead. I intend now to contact some schools to see what bikes they have to offer. When that's done I will make a decision "A2" or DAS.

Cheers
Tony N