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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 23:14 - 18 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's something I did wonder about Keithy,

I know I couldn't handle my Grandson's Blackbird.

I have emailed the local test centre asking what is the smallest engine size that can be used for the A2 test. Reason I did that was when browsing around I saw something that indicated that the 'powers that be' were thinking in terms of reducing it to 250cc but I can't remember where I saw it. I would guess it would be a sensible move with smaller engines now producing so much more power than in days gone by. If I can get the smallest possible bike, over 35kW, to replace my YS125 and have it restricted, with the idea of getting it de-restricted when, and if, I pass the test. At least that would give me a chance to get used to a slightly heavier bike.

Cheers
Tony
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UncleFester
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Joined: 30 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: 06:07 - 19 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends where it carries its weight. The rest is technique. If you let anything get far enough over best to just step away and let the crash protection you should have fitted deal with it.

My Z1000 is a chunk heavier than my previous Cb500but its more stable to ride and no harder to push about. I wouldn't want to push either up an incline but thats what the engine is for.

Again, if you ask a good school they'll give you some practice at this so you get an idea of what you're getting into.

If all else fails there's always Canam Trikes or a gold wing and side car that comes with reverse gear Smile
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 06:07 - 19 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duplicate
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Last edited by UncleFester on 07:51 - 19 Aug 2021; edited 2 times in total
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 07:40 - 19 Aug 2021    Post subject: Alternative vehicles Reply with quote

Hi UncleBFester,

I had originally intended to get a "tadpole" trike, Yamaha do a very nice one, but I couldn't get insurance for it because I hadn't undergone the CBT. A bit of a Catch 22 situation, legally allowed to ride a trike without L plates, but we won't insure you until you have got on 2 wheels, with L plates, and done the CBT! Hence I am now on a YS125.

Don't know if the same would apply to a sidecar outfit. I do remember from some 50 odd years ago, that a sidecar outfit was the cheapest thing on the road to insure. They reckoned then that they were the safest transport on the road!

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

Tony
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Keithy
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Joined: 22 Sep 2020
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PostPosted: 08:26 - 19 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Reason I did that was when browsing around I saw something that indicated that the 'powers that be' were thinking in terms of reducing it to 250cc but I can't remember where I saw it.



The 250cc consultation happened…

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=333098&highlight=

And they are going to action it

“Arrangements will be made to amend the regulations to reduce the MTV for A2 motorcycles to 245cc, with the other power requirements remaining as they are”

But it doesn’t say when.
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 07:52 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Confused Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I went online to the DVLA website to query the entitlement of my licence. This is what I got (they are from unedited screen shots): -

1)

• Category : A
• Restrictions apply
• Description
• You can drive a motorcycle of a power exceeding 35kW or with a power to weight ratio exceeding 0.2kW per kg, or A motorcycle of a power not exceeding 35kW with a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.2kW per kg and derived from a vehicle of more than double its power. A motor tricycle with a power exceeding 15kW
• Restriction codes
1. 01 Eyesight Correction
2. 79(3) Restricted to tricycles

I take it this means that I can ride any motorcycle as long as it has 3 wheels. Restriction code 79(3) applies,without the need for CBT. However, as insurance companies will not insure me until I have done the CBT that negates that.

2)

Vehicles you can provisionally drive
• Category : A
• Restrictions apply
• Description
• You can drive a motorcycle of a power exceeding 35kW or with a power to weight ratio exceeding 0.2kW per kg, or A motorcycle of a power not exceeding 35kW with a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.2kW per kg and derived from a vehicle of more than double its power. A motor tricycle with a power exceeding 15kW
• Restriction codes
1. 01 Eyesight Correction

I take it this means I can ride a 2 wheeled motorcycle, after CBT and with tax and insurance of course.

So I trawled the website using various permutations and combinations of the words "Motorcycle/Licence/Provisional/Supervision" and found the following: -

3)

Before you drive or ride

You must:

have the correct driving licence
be the minimum driving or riding age
meet the minimum eyesight rules

Learner drivers

You must:

be supervised by a qualified driver (except if riding a motorcycle)
display L plates (L plates or D plates in Wales)

My italics above, but a verbatim quote from the DVLA website.

I could not find any reference anywhere about having to be accompanied by a qualified driver when on a larger motorbike. Where did the dire warnings of £1000 fines originate from. Not from the DVLA according to my research. If you know better, and can send me the link to the appropriate Government site please, please do so.

In the absence of any information to the contrary of that above, not from an instruction centre, motorbike magazine or chat forum, but from a Government site, I would be prepared to get a bigger bike, if and when I get through the CBT, and argue the case in court if stopped.

Thanks in advance for guidance that you guys can find.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will be restricted to a 125 with L plates.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/motorcycle-licence-requirements.html

- Provisional with CBT only gives you 125 on Ls

- Anything bigger, you have to take a test

- For training, you can ride a bigger.bike if accompanied by an instructor.


Good luck in court.
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Thank you Evil Hans Reply with quote

Thanks for that mate.

Exactly what I wanted. Why don't the DVLA say so on their site?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Thank you Evil Hans Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Thanks for that mate.

Exactly what I wanted. Why don't the DVLA say so on their site?


Oh, but they do... just not in plain English Wink
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 10:35 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Confused Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
In the absence of any information to the contrary of that above, not from an instruction centre, motorbike magazine or chat forum, but from a Government site, I would be prepared to get a bigger bike, if and when I get through the CBT, and argue the case in court if stopped.


Mate, you seem like a good guy and I understand your desperation to ride a big bike straight away, but it's already been mentioned on here the limitations but please don't try to get away with just riding a bigger bike.

Yes, as long as it's taxed and insured on paper you're very unlikely to get pulled over unless you've done something to warrant the pull. However, with all respect, you're an older gentleman getting on their first ever big bike and the chances of you dropping it or getting in an accident are quite high. This is where your plan falls down completely because you won't have insurance because you LIED about having a license in the first place.

The "argue the case in court" thing is laughable and akin to the freeman-on-the-land nonsense: a Sheriff or Judge is going to take an extremely dim view of your deliberate mis-interpretation of the law.

Please, please just do things properly and get your license. It's literally only a few more months and the cost is nothing compared to the cost of being caught without one.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 10:50 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of order, caselaw states that the lack of a licence does not invalidate 3rd party insurance and insurers cannot cancel a policy retrospectively.

They may choose to sue you for their losses because you breached the terms of your contract with them but I've never found a case of this actually happening.
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Last edited by Nobby the Bastard on 11:04 - 23 Aug 2021; edited 1 time in total
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Point of order, caseload states that the lack of a licence does not invalidate 3rd party insurance and insurers cannot cancel a policy retrospectives.


Really, so you can straight up lie to your insurance company and if you bin it, they need to pay-out to the third party anyway?

What happens after that? I guess they will probably sue the rider to recover the third party expenses?

EDIT: Sorry you already answered in your reply.
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Not really a law-breaker Reply with quote

Hi Scotsman,

I heed your wise words. You will note, I hope, particularly as you quoted it, that I did say "In the absence of any information to the contrary of that above". Well, I am now in receipt of such information and will abide by it.

I had been playing with the idea of getting a bigger bike and getting it restricted to 35kW, so I might be better aclimatised to a bigger bike ready for the "A" category test, but I'm not too sure that is a practical idea as would have to ride it, restricted, to the test station, and then be able to de-restrict myself it prior to my test. I guess that would not be a 10 minute job. On a bike with carbs I guess it would be smaller choke tube and main jet, but I don't know how they would do it on a fuel injected engine.

Either that, or get it de-restricted and then trailer it to the test. Too much hassle! If, and when, I get through the CBT I intend to get shot of the trailer and try to re-coup some of the money I spent on it.

It seems that the best option is to do the DAS course with the local school, and use their bike for the test.

Cheers
Tony N

P.S. I was waiting at the garage for my car to be washed this morning and got chatting to a young girl riding a Honda 400, I liked the look of the low seat (the bike's, not the girl's), about 4" lower than the average 31", much easier for a guy who has difficulty getting his leg over (the bike etc!). She told me she was on an "A2" licence and felt quite ready for the "A", but said she probably wouldn't bother as she liked the bike she had. No, I didn't get her 'phone number, she looked a bit younger than my youngest granddaughter.
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Not really a law-breaker Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
It seems that the best option is to do the DAS course with the local school, and use their bike for the test.


Under almost all circumstances, it really is.
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Re: Not really a law-breaker Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:

P.S. I was waiting at the garage for my car to be washed this morning and got chatting to a young girl riding a Honda 400, I liked the look of the low seat (the bike's, not the girl's), about 4" lower than the average 31", much easier for a guy who has difficulty getting his leg over (the bike etc!). She told me she was on an "A2" licence and felt quite ready for the "A", but said she probably wouldn't bother as she liked the bike she had. No, I didn't get her 'phone number, she looked a bit younger than my youngest granddaughter.


CB400SuperFour or a Honda BROS i'd bet
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember Sophie (sofarsogood) saying my exup looked mentally huge and heavy.

She changed her mind after sitting on it
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 23 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
She changed her mind after sitting on it


The bike?
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Advice needed for a newbie, update Reply with quote

Hi Guys, and Gals of course,

well I've been and gone and done it. I have in my possession an official DL196, "Certificate of Completion etc". So I suggest you stay away from Bournemouth, especially if you see a nervous looking octogenarian on a Yamaha YS125, black with a white tank.

I was initially a bit concerned as the slow riding exercises, which I had done perfectly in practice the day before, took me 2 or 3 goes to get right. Then, after some instructional chat we were out on the road. At first on roads that I knew very well as I live only a stone's throw from the Road Safety Centre, then into the busiest roads in the Bournemouth area. A bit nerve wracking when you've never ridden a bike on public roads. Plenty of radio comments like "Keep up Tony" and "Cancel your indicator Tony", never a mention of the other guy Joe who was, according to the instructor, a repeat offender, having failed to make the grade on his first attempt.

At the end of it all, six and a half hours later, the certificate in my hand. What a relief!

I guess the next step is the theory and hazard awareness tests.

Now to a question: As my licence is a "Provisional A" which, according to "Gov.UK" allows me to provisionally ride any motorcycle, can I now ride a 600 with "L" plates?

I wouldn't reckon to do this straight away, I would like to get a year's no-claim under my belt before attempting that. At least then, when I go for the "A" test I would be using a bike I am familiar with, and have had the opportunity to practice on.

All the best, stay safe,

Tony N
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie, update Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Now to a question: As my licence is a "Provisional A" which, according to "Gov.UK" allows me to provisionally ride any motorcycle, can I now ride a 600 with "L" plates?


Yes so long as ALL of these conditions are met:

1. It is insured, and,
2. It displays L plates, and,
3. You are under constant supervision by an approved instructor.

Unfortunately the answer hasn't changed since the last time you asked it. Having a CBT doesn't magically change anything.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie, update Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
well I've been and gone and done it. I have in my possession an official DL196, "Certificate of Completion etc". So I suggest you stay away from Bournemouth, especially if you see a nervous looking octogenarian on a Yamaha YS125, black with a white tank.

Congrats! Well done.

Tony Norton wrote:
As my licence is a "Provisional A" which, according to "Gov.UK" allows me to provisionally ride any motorcycle, can I now ride a 600 with "L" plates?

No* Tony, just... no. Rolling Eyes

[*EDIT: unless you're with an instructor having a lesson, of course - but I don't think that's what you meant...]
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Tony Norton
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Advice needed for a newbie, update. Reply with quote

Hi Freddy,

You're quite right about my meaning.

This is a bit confusing. The following is a direct quote from the "gov.uk" "Legal obligations of drivers and riders": -

"Learner drivers
You must:
be supervised by a qualified driver (except if riding a motorcycle)" My italics.

The statement above seems to me to indicate that, subject to having completed the CBT, having an appropriate licence (mine is a provisional "A" not A1 or A2), being insured, having an MOT for the bike if necessary and having paid the Road Tax, I would be entitled to, again a direct quote: -

"....drive a motorcycle of power exceeding 35kW....".

This is not a general statement but specific to me having entered my driving licence number, National Insurance number and Post Code under their heading "Enter details".

Which, I would claim, specifically says "Yes I can".

As I said previously, for obvious reasons, I would not expect to do this without previously having had probably a year's worth of practice on my 125.

I would be grateful if someone could point me to the link that says specifically that I cannot ride a 35kW bike unsupervised. It would need to directly contradict what the government has told me, specifically, what I can do.

Happy riding
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Advice needed for a newbie, update. Reply with quote

Tony Norton wrote:
Said a lot of stuff


Tony, you seem to not understand provisional licensing at a fundamental level. Provisional licenses are supposed to allow people to train and take tests only.

No license = you can drive nothing on the road,
Provisional license = you can drive something on the road under supervision,
Fully licensed = you can drive something on the road unsupervised.

There's probably no law that very specifically states "You can not crush someone's head using an ACME anvil" but if I crushed someone's head using an ACME anvil I can't say "wellllllll officer, I didn't see a page on the Government's website saying that I couldn't do it" and think it was an acceptable excuse.

The licensing requirements are very clear on this page:

https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/bike-categories-ages-and-licence-requirements

For a Category A license you must:

1. Successfully complete a CBT, and,
2. Successfully pass a Theory test (Motorcycle-specific version), and,
3. Successfully pass Practical tests (MOD 1 and MOD 2).

Then using the DVLA licensing requirements tool:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicles-can-drive/y/motorbike-categories-a1-a2-and-a/24-or-over

DVLA Website wrote:
You can apply for a provisional licence then learn to ride any size of motorbike
You’ll then need to complete compulsory basic training (CBT) and take the theory and practical tests for the kind of motorbike you want to ride within 2 years.

You’ll need to pass the practical test on a bike with a power output of at least 50kW and a minimum kerb weight of 180kg to ride any size of bike.

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Last edited by Fat Angry Scotsman on 14:28 - 17 Sep 2021; edited 1 time in total
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Prawny
Nitrous Nuisance



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PostPosted: 14:26 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

This again?

Check out the Highway Code motorcycle licence requirements section it’s spelled out there clearly and as you have been advised before (several times)

MV(DL) R regs 9 & 16(7) and RTA 1988 sect97(3)
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 17 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

To expand on Prawny's reply for expediency. BOLD added to the critical part you are trying to ignore from reality.

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licenses) Regulations 1999 wrote:


Conditions attached to provisional licences

16.—(1) A provisional licence of any class is granted subject to the conditions prescribed in relation to a licence of that class in the following paragraphs.

(2) Subject to the following paragraphs, the holder of a provisional licence shall not drive a vehicle of a class which he is authorised to drive by virtue of that licence—

(a)otherwise than under the supervision of a qualified driver who is present with him in or on the vehicle,
(b)unless a distinguishing mark in the form set out in Part 1 of Schedule 4 is displayed on the vehicle in such manner as to be clearly visible to other persons using the road from within a reasonable distance from the front and from the back of the vehicle, or
(c)while it is being used to draw a trailer.

(3) The condition specified in paragraph (2)(a) shall not apply when the holder of the provisional licence—

(a)is driving a motor vehicle of a class included in sub-category B1 or B1 (invalid carriages) or in category F, G, H or K which is constructed to carry only one person and not adapted to carry more than one person;
(b)is riding a moped or a motor bicycle with or without a side-car; or
(c)is driving a motor vehicle, other than a vehicle of a class included in category C, C+E, D or D+E, on a road in an exempted island.

(4) The condition specified in paragraph (2)(b) shall not apply—

(a)when the holder of the provisional licence is driving a motor vehicle on a road in Wales, and
(b)a distinguishing mark in the form set out in Part 2 of Schedule 4 is displayed on the motor vehicle in the manner described in paragraph (2)(b).

(5) The condition specified in paragraph (2)(c) shall not apply to the holder of a provisional licence authorising the driving of a vehicle of a class included in category B+E, C+E, D+E or F, in relation to motor vehicles of that class.

(6) The holder of a provisional licence authorising the driving of—

(a)a moped, or
(b)a motor bicycle with or without a side-car,
shall not drive such a vehicle while carrying on it another person.

(7) The holder of a provisional licence authorising the driving of a motor bicycle other than a learner motor bicycle shall not drive such a vehicle otherwise than under the supervision of a certified direct access instructor (within the meaning of regulation 64(2)) who is—

(a)present with him on the road while riding another motor bicycle,
(b)able to communicate with him by means of a radio which is not hand-held while in operation,
(c)supervising only that person or only that person and another person who holds such a provisional licence, and
(d)carrying a valid certificate issued in respect of him by the Secretary of State under regulation 65(4),
while he and the instructor are wearing apparel which is fluorescent or (during hours of darkness) is either fluorescent or luminous.


(8) The holder of a passenger-carrying vehicle driver’s provisional licence shall not drive a vehicle which he is authorised to drive by that licence while carrying any passenger in the vehicle other than—

(a)the person specified in paragraph (2)(a), or
(b)a person who holds a passenger-carrying vehicle driver’s licence and either is giving or receiving instruction in the driving of passenger-carrying vehicles, or has given or received or is to give or receive, such instruction.

(9) The conditions specified in paragraphs (2)(a), (7) and (8) shall not apply when the holder of the provisional licence is undergoing a test.

(10) The conditions specified in paragraphs (2), (6), (7) and (8) shall not apply in relation to the driving of motor vehicles of a class in respect of which the provisional licence holder has been furnished with a valid test pass certificate stating that he has passed a test for the grant of a licence authorising him to drive vehicles of that class.

(11) The condition specified in paragraph (7)(b) shall not apply in the case of a provisional licence holder who is unable, by reason of impaired hearing, to receive directions from the supervising instructor by radio where the licence holder and the instructor are employing a satisfactory means of communication which they have agreed before the start of the journey.

(12) In the case of an LGV trainee driver’s licence issued as a provisional licence, this regulation shall apply as modified by regulation 54.

(13) In this regulation—

(a)“exempted island” means any island outside the mainland of Great Britain from which motor vehicles, unless constructed or adapted specially for that purpose, cannot at any time be conveniently driven to a road in any other part of Great Britain by reason of the absence of any bridge, tunnel, ford or other way suitable for the passage of such motor vehicles but excluding any of the following islands, namely, the Isle of Wight, St. Mary’s (Isles of Scilly), the islands of Arran, Barra, Bute, Great Cumbrae, Islay, the island which comprises Lewis and Harris, Mainland Orkney, Mainland Shetland, Mull, the island which comprises North Uist, Benbecula and South Uist and Tiree;
(b)“provisional licence”, in relation to a class of vehicles, includes a full licence which is treated, by virtue of section 98 of the Traffic Act, as authorising its holder to drive vehicles of that class as if he held a provisional licence therefor;
(c)“qualified driver” shall be interpreted in accordance with regulation 17.

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The last post was made 2 years, 193 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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