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droog
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Electric . . . Reply with quote

Just written the following screed on electric v petrol - dunno if it makes sense or not - you be the judge.

I've recently had to get my CBR back on the road and have been spending time restoring my old winter hack Hornet - I've learned a lot of stuff on my motorcycle DIY journey like changing shims, rebuilding carbs, rebuilding brakes etc along with the routine maintenance stuff - oil change, coolant change etc, I even got round to changing my own tires.

But while I was filling up the CBRs empty tank with a jerry can of stinking, highly flammable, and toxic fuel, with containers of the drained, equally toxic waste oil and coolant at my feet, I thought - wouldn't it be nice not to have to deal with the complications and toxic output/waste of an ICE engine and (shudder) just have a simple electric motor instead?

I was not convinced that I could ever want to own or ride an electric motorcycle - the culture of motorcycling seemed indelibly wedded to the sounds, noise and smells associated with the ICE.

But I have gradually come to the conclusion that exhaust noise and vibration etc isn't as important to the enjoyment of riding a motorcycle as I used to think it was.

I know that there a lot of issues surrounding electric vehicles - and that motorcycles (due to their size) present an extra set of technical challenges in terms of range and power etc - but if I could have an electric motorcycle that delivered the same performance and range as a sporty petrol bike - (and if the purchase price was realistic) I would have no problem going to electric. Obviously a lot of 'ifs' there - but my attitudes are definitely changing.

What do guys think? Would you be happy to ride an electric bike if it did what your current bike does - but without all of the above complications?

Or maybe it's just that my brain has been taken over by some kind of mind control ray the one world government has beamed into my skull via 5G phone masts?
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree to some extent; however, I think it'd depend on circumstance. If I go out for a bit of a hoon, I think I'd actually be happy with an electric bike of comparable performance. I'm too involved in the riding to pay much attention to the noise. If I was out for a bit more of a pootle, I then revel in the noise a bit more - it becomes more of the experience for me in such situations. I think I'd miss it then, an electric bike feeling more like a milk float.

I did have the same thought about waste products myself the other day though; I've got various waste liquids I need to get rid of including oil (the easy one, the tip takes it), coolant, fork oil and brake fluid. Of course, the latter two are not solved by electric vehicles so they aren't entirely mucky-stuff free.

The last thing, on my old C90 I quite enjoy the concept that it's relatively fixable with a handful of spanners. The propulsion system of an electric bike I imagine is generally going to be replace not repair, or at least not repair in a home environment. Or maybe home mechanics will evolve away from setting valve clearances and towards taking apart electric motors?
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite enjoy the whole maintenance piece (well, the majority of it, but that's mostly cos I don't have a garage (yet) so whatever work I do has to be on a sunny day).

Definitely enjoy hearing the engine screaming when you're giving it a wrist-full.

Haven't ridden an electric motorcycle yet, but realistically one would meet my needs as most of my rides now are less than a tankful (majority is commuting, the rest is just local A/B roads).
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A100man
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PostPosted: 10:35 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
I quite enjoy the whole maintenance piece (well, the majority of it, but that's mostly cos I don't have a garage (yet) so whatever work I do has to be on a sunny day).


..same as.

If I rode a leccy bike with the same frequency a petrol one the battery would always be knacked by the time I threw a leg over... and that would eb expensive

I also get the impression that serial acquisition of mutiple bikes would not happen with electric. As an A to B tool they're probably fine but really that's only a fraction of the deal for me...
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP is on something.

Posting electric in a motorcycle forum.

You'll set a trend in Buckskin Chaps (and fronges) on an electric Harley.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Electric . . . Reply with quote

droog wrote:
But while I was filling up the CBRs empty tank with a jerry can of stinking, highly flammable, and toxic fuel, with containers of the drained, equally toxic waste oil and coolant at my feet, I thought - wouldn't it be nice not to have to deal with the complications and toxic output/waste of an ICE engine and (shudder) just have a simple electric motor instead?


Electric vehicles have oil in their transmission systems, probably just ATF and nowhere near as much is need but it's still in there. The petrol makes the pollution of an ICE vehicle real, tangible and personal. Electric gives you the illusion of cleanliness but the reality is the pollution just happens elsewhere, out of sight.
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Prawny
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m fully on board with electric motorbikes, it’s just the price that is the problem.

To be honest living near a main road in the heat of the last 2 days I’d be happy if half the knuts round my way were happy to swap to electric too, or at least leaving some kind of silencer on if they’re going to ride around at 3 in the morning.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 12:22 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a big ace weird magic wizard said, today, swap your bike for this electric one because it does everything 10% better (weight, power-to-weight, brakes, suspension, range, ease of everything, handling, rah rah rah), I'd say yeah wow great. GIVE!!

Otherwise, no.

But RE your points about mess, filth, stink, dirt, disease, gonorrhoea, ETC - yeah, not bothered. I don't have a romantic or sentimental attachment to those things at all. Some bikes do sound good, but mine don't. So the less noise they make the better afaic. Changing gear and using a clutch - on a road bike, not bothered. Wouldn't miss it. Might be different on my KLX though - I'd at least want a clutch, I think. Disengaging drive when tackling something tricky appeals to me - don't have the skill to do it all on the throttle and brakes.

Green arguments don't cut it w/ me because it feels like the problem is being passed up the chain - okay so town centres might have better air - but the pollution is happening somewhere else, as more pressure is put on the grid which is still mostly fossil fuel based, sfaict. And in any case, if we all had to plug our cars in at night, wow - imagine how much stress that would put on the grid. That's what the guy across the road from me doesn't seem to get - he thinks he's being green and clean and great. But it strikes me as, first and foremost, selfish. Because for him to salve his eco-conscience means that only he and a few others get that luxury. If we all did it, we'd be in an even worse situation. Never mind that electric will turn out to be a developmental cul-de-sac, and all the elements and construction of new vehicles, and scrapping of the old ICE vehicles to bring in developmental dead-end vehicles will have all been for nothing and, worse still, will have created immense extra damage that could've been avoided. But you can never tell these dickheads any of this because they don't want to hear it.
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droog
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies - appreciate and very interested in your opinions and insights.

MCN wrote:
OP is on something.

Posting electric in a motorcycle forum.

You'll set a trend in Buckskin Chaps (and fronges) on an electric Harley.



MCN - it's 2021 going on 2022 - we all know which way things are heading vis-a-vis legislation and technology - granted we can't predict with certainty exactly what is going to happen - but it would be odd not to discuss electric bikes and their potential on a motorcycle forum at this stage of history.

I'm not thinking of chaps and electric Harleys - I'm thinking of electric bikes that can replicate or exceed the performance of current super-sports 600s and litre bikes. Seems only a matter of time (to me) before one of the big manufacturers launch a bike like this onto the market.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once I can buy an electric bike with ~50hp, 180kg, 100 mile range for about £8k, I'll do it.

Next car will be electric, in about a year.

Without wanting to get dragged into the arguments about emissions caused by electric cars or stress on the grid too much, standard answers:
1. Yes, the grid includes fossil fuel. Less and less of them every year. It's cleaner to run an electric car where the electricity is partially from renewables and partially from quite efficient fossil fuel use, than using petrol.
2. If everyone switched to electric cars tomorrow, the grid wouldn't handle it. The switch will be gradual, and the grid is being changed to support electric cars (and more use of heat pumps instead of boilers) at about the same rate.

You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:

You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change.


Thats's a burden I've carried throughout my life. I'm resistant to change in 'everything' - mostly with good reason I might add.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, if you ride a CBR, or any of the new quick upright bikes such as Triumph Speed Triple or Kawasaki Z900, then you start to think in terms of acceleration and cornering speed, traction, etc. This is because, out on the road, the brakes are so good, they don't limit you. The frame is so stiff and predictable out on the road, it doesn't limit you. The engine response is perfectly smooth and predictable, with no judders or flat spots, and its behaviour doesn't change at different altitudes.

The result of these tech improvements is that a lot of the potential sources for uncertainty have been taken out of the mix, on those bikes. So all that's left for you as a rider is to consider your smooth roll-on roll-off, and enjoy the sensation of fast acceleration. These factors may soon be in the purview of competition from electric bikes.

However, there's a whole raft of other experiences that come with uncertainty, and the reason we like these uncertainties in bikes has nothing to do with interpretations of Keith Code's (undoubtedly good) riding techniques. With that Speed Triple, you have to find your fun somewhere, because pottering around back roads isn't going to give you that blast. You have to look farther afield for that perfect road, and when you get there you have to get your adrenaline going.

With older bikes, you may enter a corner much slower than your tyres can handle, because the braking distance is much longer. The steel frame may start to wobble at 70-ish. You get the instant throttle response you want (so you have no choice but to be smooth), the awesome sounds, the vibration, the throatiness, the visceral experience you want, etc. Plus it gives you the pleasure of knowing it still works. A lot of people buy new Enfields to recapture some of this feeling - a big long-stroke single, but it still won't have that slide carb throttle feeling of the classic Enfields or things like the XT500.

What the manufacturers did with late sports bikes was, use engineering to solve problems limiting the performance of the older bikes. They were very successful at it. Even a Kwak GT550 - great little bike - is perfectly silky smooth when the CV carbs are dialled-in and in-sync. You get better fuelling with FI bikes of the modern period, plus better almost everything. So, you have to find ways to make life interesting with them. Such as go a long way (to Wales) to find suitable roads, or do track days, or learn wheelies, or something. However, the hobby of tinkering with and riding the raw old bikes has very little overlap with that hobby, and can't be considered for replacement with electric.
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite like filling my bike up, seeing what mpg it got and tracking the mileage.

I like oil and filter changing.. (not so much coolant changing though).. i find it fun.


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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change.


It is if it causes more problems than it solves, and sfaict, if electric proves to be a dead end (because "hydrogen"), all the premature scrapping of ICE vehicles was for nothing. In fact, if those vehicles might on average have run for 6 more years, I can scarcely believe that the manufacture of new vehicles will have avoided creating more pollution in the process. How would it NOT? This seems both inevitable and obvious to my mind.

I'm older than you, and the strongest environmental arguments around when I was growing up were all based around criticising planned obsolescence, avoiding needless waste, and the need to "make do and mend". I'm not at all convinced that it's "greener" to scrap a 10 year oid ICE car and create more demand for a new electric one than it is to run the ICE for 5 more years. Is the mining of new ore, the transport of refined materials to factories, and all the myriad other processes involved in constructing a new vehicle - even if it ran on fresh air - is all that really more environmentally sound than keeping an older car running longer? This isn't a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious as to how this is chunked out both theoretically and empirically.

I always wonder how long it would take for a wind turbine to generate enough power to recoup the energy expended in its manufacture. If you were to trace out all the processes required along the way to its construction, could it ever turn for long enough? Would its bearings and blades wear out and it become a Trigger's broom problem? None of this feels very green when these issues are taken into account.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here's a pertinent nugget of information from history.

When the Japanese bikes first came out, someone suggested to the chairman of Triumph motorcycles that they should start to think about making bikes more reliable and lower maintenance to try to match the Japanese. Mr Whoever it was, replied with "The average Triumph owner enjoys spending their weekend lapping their valves in, it's part of the interest". Yeah, and then they wondered how the Japanese took over with so little resistance.

With that in mind, I think that lower maintenance has to be the future. People hardly work on their own bikes any more anyway, especially with the advent of easily chopped in bikes on PCP deals. This is similar to the noise, the vibration, changing gear etc etc. Will I miss those things? Yes, because I grew up in an era where I had to do them. Will I miss them enough for me to stop riding if everything goes electric? No way. I have a two stroke because I like it, I like the smell, the noise, the memories. But do I ride a two stroke as a daily? No! I can't be bothered with the rebuilds.

That is where we'll evolve to with IC engines in general, and I think bikes have more potential to be fun and exciting than cars with that technology at their core. If I can ride a guilt free electric bike that performs as well as my IC bikes with low maintenance, quiet operation and possibly no need to change gear? I'll do it. I'll miss the old stuff, but only in a whistful fuddy duddy way, not in a "Things were objectively better in the past" way, because they really weren't.
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droog
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
the hobby of tinkering with and riding the raw old bikes has very little overlap with that hobby, and can't be considered for replacement with electric.


Yeah, I totally get this - if that's your thing then electric ain't going to replace it.

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
I'm not at all convinced that it's "greener" to scrap a 10 year oid ICE car and create more demand for a new electric one than it is to run the ICE for 5 more years. Is the mining of new ore, the transport of refined materials to factories, and all the myriad other processes involved in constructing a new vehicle - even if it ran on fresh air - is all that really more environmentally sound than keeping an older car running longer? This isn't a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious as to how this is chunked out both theoretically and empirically.


Yeah, I agree - in terms of the next 20 years of my riding career (touch wood) I reckon it would be far more environmentally friendly for me to ride and maintain existing petrol vehicles over that period than have brand new electrical vehicles created for me. On the other hand I'm intrigued by the relative simplicity and lack of maintenance associated with electric.

MarJay wrote:
That is where we'll evolve to with IC engines in general, and I think bikes have more potential to be fun and exciting than cars with that technology at their core. If I can ride a guilt free electric bike that performs as well as my IC bikes with low maintenance, quiet operation and possibly no need to change gear? I'll do it. I'll miss the old stuff, but only in a whistful fuddy duddy way, not in a "Things were objectively better in the past" way, because they really weren't.


Yeah, agree - I started out resenting the concept of an electric motorcycle - but my take on the subject has developed somewhat and this is very much my view on the petrol v electric motorcycle debate these days.
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Electric . . . Reply with quote

droog wrote:
What do guys think? Would you be happy to ride an electric bike if it did what your current bike does - but without all of the above complications?


I've always been pragmatic about technology, and my nostalgia only goes so far, so, yes. Building an electric mountain bike has given me an appreciation for the benefits. I've done zero maintenance to the electric bits in the time I've had it.

I think part of the difficulty is that there isn't going to be a changeover day where electric vehicles are better than ICE for all use cases. If I lived in a city and had a reasonably short commute I'd already use an electric bicycle/scooter/bike in preference to an ICE alternative. On the other end of the scale, you aren't going to be touring on an electric bike any time soon.

Fortnine has it right. The bike companies are trying to sell to the high end (because of the development costs), but the benefits are marginal at best. They should be selling to the low end where the upsides are much more apparent. An electric C90 equivalent for a decent price and from a company with decent dealer backup would clean up I think.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
If I can ride a guilt free electric bike


What's a guilt free electric bike?

Thinking
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kris wrote:
MarJay wrote:
If I can ride a guilt free electric bike


What's a guilt free electric bike?

Thinking


It's a bike that's not produced using stripmined minerals coming from the other side of the world, ideally, and is charged by predominantly renewable energy. If we're going to do those things, we might as well stick with fossil fuels for the time being.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:59 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to electric bikes, aren’t bikes per se going out of fashion anyway? Biking seems to me to be an old man’s hobby, with one or two exceptions round my way. We old fellas enjoy the IC drama. Switch-and-go has little appeal, and we’ve also seen too many false predictions of the end-of-the-world to fret about it.
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern bikes are as maintenance free as you can reasonably get i think.

Mine requires not a fat lot in terms of care or attention and it gets an annual service where someone else deals with the oily bits.

If the choice is between NO bike and an E bike then i'll take the E ..... but until that choice is forced i'll stick with fossil fuel powered stuff.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how soon those millions of little scooters/125's we see in cities in the far east will get changed to electric. That seems like the ideal target audience but then those little bikes cost pennies. They won't pay 3 times the price for an EV.

And yes, I have seen those homemade lashups using converted scooters but nothing from real manufacturers.
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droog
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: Electric . . . Reply with quote

Zen Dog wrote:
Fortnine has it right. The bike companies are trying to sell to the high end (because of the development costs), but the benefits are marginal at best. They should be selling to the low end where the upsides are much more apparent. An electric C90 equivalent for a decent price and from a company with decent dealer backup would clean up I think.


Yes - I reckon this kind of electric, C90 type machine will appear on the mass market soon - it will most likely be designed and built by a Chinese manufacturer as they have done a lot of work already on EV technology.
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droog
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I wonder how soon those millions of little scooters/125's we see in cities in the far east will get changed to electric. That seems like the ideal target audience but then those little bikes cost pennies. They won't pay 3 times the price for an EV.

And yes, I have seen those homemade lashups using converted scooters but nothing from real manufacturers.


I reckon they are on their way - saw a really interesting programme recently on Chinese EV companies - they are really driving things forward in this area,
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droog
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PostPosted: 18:58 - 09 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
When it comes to electric bikes, aren’t bikes per se going out of fashion anyway? Biking seems to me to be an old man’s hobby.


From my reckoning (just my impression - don't have the stats to hand) the last big injection of 'new blood' into biking (people in teens and 20's) was in the mid to late 90's when motorcycles got properly fashionable again and a lot of people were doing 1 week direct access to full licence courses.

Those people are all in their 40s and 50s now and there has not been a comparable surge in interest from younger folk since then.

So yeah - biking is getting a bit middle aged these days.
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