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droog |
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droog Spanner Monkey
Joined: 03 Dec 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 09:18 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: Electric . . . |
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Just written the following screed on electric v petrol - dunno if it makes sense or not - you be the judge.
I've recently had to get my CBR back on the road and have been spending time restoring my old winter hack Hornet - I've learned a lot of stuff on my motorcycle DIY journey like changing shims, rebuilding carbs, rebuilding brakes etc along with the routine maintenance stuff - oil change, coolant change etc, I even got round to changing my own tires.
But while I was filling up the CBRs empty tank with a jerry can of stinking, highly flammable, and toxic fuel, with containers of the drained, equally toxic waste oil and coolant at my feet, I thought - wouldn't it be nice not to have to deal with the complications and toxic output/waste of an ICE engine and (shudder) just have a simple electric motor instead?
I was not convinced that I could ever want to own or ride an electric motorcycle - the culture of motorcycling seemed indelibly wedded to the sounds, noise and smells associated with the ICE.
But I have gradually come to the conclusion that exhaust noise and vibration etc isn't as important to the enjoyment of riding a motorcycle as I used to think it was.
I know that there a lot of issues surrounding electric vehicles - and that motorcycles (due to their size) present an extra set of technical challenges in terms of range and power etc - but if I could have an electric motorcycle that delivered the same performance and range as a sporty petrol bike - (and if the purchase price was realistic) I would have no problem going to electric. Obviously a lot of 'ifs' there - but my attitudes are definitely changing.
What do guys think? Would you be happy to ride an electric bike if it did what your current bike does - but without all of the above complications?
Or maybe it's just that my brain has been taken over by some kind of mind control ray the one world government has beamed into my skull via 5G phone masts? ____________________ Even more boring in real life . . . |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Karma :
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Posted: 10:01 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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I don't disagree to some extent; however, I think it'd depend on circumstance. If I go out for a bit of a hoon, I think I'd actually be happy with an electric bike of comparable performance. I'm too involved in the riding to pay much attention to the noise. If I was out for a bit more of a pootle, I then revel in the noise a bit more - it becomes more of the experience for me in such situations. I think I'd miss it then, an electric bike feeling more like a milk float.
I did have the same thought about waste products myself the other day though; I've got various waste liquids I need to get rid of including oil (the easy one, the tip takes it), coolant, fork oil and brake fluid. Of course, the latter two are not solved by electric vehicles so they aren't entirely mucky-stuff free.
The last thing, on my old C90 I quite enjoy the concept that it's relatively fixable with a handful of spanners. The propulsion system of an electric bike I imagine is generally going to be replace not repair, or at least not repair in a home environment. Or maybe home mechanics will evolve away from setting valve clearances and towards taking apart electric motors? ____________________ TG. |
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xX-Alex-Xx |
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xX-Alex-Xx World Chat Champion
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:35 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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xX-Alex-Xx wrote: | I quite enjoy the whole maintenance piece (well, the majority of it, but that's mostly cos I don't have a garage (yet) so whatever work I do has to be on a sunny day).
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..same as.
If I rode a leccy bike with the same frequency a petrol one the battery would always be knacked by the time I threw a leg over... and that would eb expensive
I also get the impression that serial acquisition of mutiple bikes would not happen with electric. As an A to B tool they're probably fine but really that's only a fraction of the deal for me... ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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MCN |
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MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 10:59 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: Re: Electric . . . |
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droog wrote: | But while I was filling up the CBRs empty tank with a jerry can of stinking, highly flammable, and toxic fuel, with containers of the drained, equally toxic waste oil and coolant at my feet, I thought - wouldn't it be nice not to have to deal with the complications and toxic output/waste of an ICE engine and (shudder) just have a simple electric motor instead? |
Electric vehicles have oil in their transmission systems, probably just ATF and nowhere near as much is need but it's still in there. The petrol makes the pollution of an ICE vehicle real, tangible and personal. Electric gives you the illusion of cleanliness but the reality is the pollution just happens elsewhere, out of sight. ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Prawny |
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Prawny Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 22 Jun 2019 Karma :
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha World Chat Champion
Joined: 22 Nov 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 12:22 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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If a big ace weird magic wizard said, today, swap your bike for this electric one because it does everything 10% better (weight, power-to-weight, brakes, suspension, range, ease of everything, handling, rah rah rah), I'd say yeah wow great. GIVE!!
Otherwise, no.
But RE your points about mess, filth, stink, dirt, disease, gonorrhoea, ETC - yeah, not bothered. I don't have a romantic or sentimental attachment to those things at all. Some bikes do sound good, but mine don't. So the less noise they make the better afaic. Changing gear and using a clutch - on a road bike, not bothered. Wouldn't miss it. Might be different on my KLX though - I'd at least want a clutch, I think. Disengaging drive when tackling something tricky appeals to me - don't have the skill to do it all on the throttle and brakes.
Green arguments don't cut it w/ me because it feels like the problem is being passed up the chain - okay so town centres might have better air - but the pollution is happening somewhere else, as more pressure is put on the grid which is still mostly fossil fuel based, sfaict. And in any case, if we all had to plug our cars in at night, wow - imagine how much stress that would put on the grid. That's what the guy across the road from me doesn't seem to get - he thinks he's being green and clean and great. But it strikes me as, first and foremost, selfish. Because for him to salve his eco-conscience means that only he and a few others get that luxury. If we all did it, we'd be in an even worse situation. Never mind that electric will turn out to be a developmental cul-de-sac, and all the elements and construction of new vehicles, and scrapping of the old ICE vehicles to bring in developmental dead-end vehicles will have all been for nothing and, worse still, will have created immense extra damage that could've been avoided. But you can never tell these dickheads any of this because they don't want to hear it. ____________________ "Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."
Mobylette Type 50 ---> Raleigh Grifter ---> Neval Minsk 125 |
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droog |
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droog Spanner Monkey
Joined: 03 Dec 2019 Karma :
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
Joined: 16 May 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 13:41 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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Once I can buy an electric bike with ~50hp, 180kg, 100 mile range for about £8k, I'll do it.
Next car will be electric, in about a year.
Without wanting to get dragged into the arguments about emissions caused by electric cars or stress on the grid too much, standard answers:
1. Yes, the grid includes fossil fuel. Less and less of them every year. It's cleaner to run an electric car where the electricity is partially from renewables and partially from quite efficient fossil fuel use, than using petrol.
2. If everyone switched to electric cars tomorrow, the grid wouldn't handle it. The switch will be gradual, and the grid is being changed to support electric cars (and more use of heat pumps instead of boilers) at about the same rate.
You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change. |
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 13:57 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: |
You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change. |
Thats's a burden I've carried throughout my life. I'm resistant to change in 'everything' - mostly with good reason I might add. ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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Bhud |
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Bhud World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Karma :
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Posted: 13:59 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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The thing is, if you ride a CBR, or any of the new quick upright bikes such as Triumph Speed Triple or Kawasaki Z900, then you start to think in terms of acceleration and cornering speed, traction, etc. This is because, out on the road, the brakes are so good, they don't limit you. The frame is so stiff and predictable out on the road, it doesn't limit you. The engine response is perfectly smooth and predictable, with no judders or flat spots, and its behaviour doesn't change at different altitudes.
The result of these tech improvements is that a lot of the potential sources for uncertainty have been taken out of the mix, on those bikes. So all that's left for you as a rider is to consider your smooth roll-on roll-off, and enjoy the sensation of fast acceleration. These factors may soon be in the purview of competition from electric bikes.
However, there's a whole raft of other experiences that come with uncertainty, and the reason we like these uncertainties in bikes has nothing to do with interpretations of Keith Code's (undoubtedly good) riding techniques. With that Speed Triple, you have to find your fun somewhere, because pottering around back roads isn't going to give you that blast. You have to look farther afield for that perfect road, and when you get there you have to get your adrenaline going.
With older bikes, you may enter a corner much slower than your tyres can handle, because the braking distance is much longer. The steel frame may start to wobble at 70-ish. You get the instant throttle response you want (so you have no choice but to be smooth), the awesome sounds, the vibration, the throatiness, the visceral experience you want, etc. Plus it gives you the pleasure of knowing it still works. A lot of people buy new Enfields to recapture some of this feeling - a big long-stroke single, but it still won't have that slide carb throttle feeling of the classic Enfields or things like the XT500.
What the manufacturers did with late sports bikes was, use engineering to solve problems limiting the performance of the older bikes. They were very successful at it. Even a Kwak GT550 - great little bike - is perfectly silky smooth when the CV carbs are dialled-in and in-sync. You get better fuelling with FI bikes of the modern period, plus better almost everything. So, you have to find ways to make life interesting with them. Such as go a long way (to Wales) to find suitable roads, or do track days, or learn wheelies, or something. However, the hobby of tinkering with and riding the raw old bikes has very little overlap with that hobby, and can't be considered for replacement with electric. |
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blurredman |
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blurredman World Chat Champion
Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:25 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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I quite like filling my bike up, seeing what mpg it got and tracking the mileage.
I like oil and filter changing.. (not so much coolant changing though).. i find it fun.
I'm a very sad person ____________________ CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S.
Current: 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (bored to 295cc) - 38k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 49k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 9k, 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 17k. |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha World Chat Champion
Joined: 22 Nov 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 15:06 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: | You are not the first person to think of a potential problem, and that potential problem is not a good reason to resist change. |
It is if it causes more problems than it solves, and sfaict, if electric proves to be a dead end (because "hydrogen"), all the premature scrapping of ICE vehicles was for nothing. In fact, if those vehicles might on average have run for 6 more years, I can scarcely believe that the manufacture of new vehicles will have avoided creating more pollution in the process. How would it NOT? This seems both inevitable and obvious to my mind.
I'm older than you, and the strongest environmental arguments around when I was growing up were all based around criticising planned obsolescence, avoiding needless waste, and the need to "make do and mend". I'm not at all convinced that it's "greener" to scrap a 10 year oid ICE car and create more demand for a new electric one than it is to run the ICE for 5 more years. Is the mining of new ore, the transport of refined materials to factories, and all the myriad other processes involved in constructing a new vehicle - even if it ran on fresh air - is all that really more environmentally sound than keeping an older car running longer? This isn't a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious as to how this is chunked out both theoretically and empirically.
I always wonder how long it would take for a wind turbine to generate enough power to recoup the energy expended in its manufacture. If you were to trace out all the processes required along the way to its construction, could it ever turn for long enough? Would its bearings and blades wear out and it become a Trigger's broom problem? None of this feels very green when these issues are taken into account. ____________________ "Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."
Mobylette Type 50 ---> Raleigh Grifter ---> Neval Minsk 125 |
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MarJay |
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MarJay But it's British!
Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :
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Posted: 15:11 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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So here's a pertinent nugget of information from history.
When the Japanese bikes first came out, someone suggested to the chairman of Triumph motorcycles that they should start to think about making bikes more reliable and lower maintenance to try to match the Japanese. Mr Whoever it was, replied with "The average Triumph owner enjoys spending their weekend lapping their valves in, it's part of the interest". Yeah, and then they wondered how the Japanese took over with so little resistance.
With that in mind, I think that lower maintenance has to be the future. People hardly work on their own bikes any more anyway, especially with the advent of easily chopped in bikes on PCP deals. This is similar to the noise, the vibration, changing gear etc etc. Will I miss those things? Yes, because I grew up in an era where I had to do them. Will I miss them enough for me to stop riding if everything goes electric? No way. I have a two stroke because I like it, I like the smell, the noise, the memories. But do I ride a two stroke as a daily? No! I can't be bothered with the rebuilds.
That is where we'll evolve to with IC engines in general, and I think bikes have more potential to be fun and exciting than cars with that technology at their core. If I can ride a guilt free electric bike that performs as well as my IC bikes with low maintenance, quiet operation and possibly no need to change gear? I'll do it. I'll miss the old stuff, but only in a whistful fuddy duddy way, not in a "Things were objectively better in the past" way, because they really weren't. ____________________ British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another. |
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droog |
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droog Spanner Monkey
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Posted: 16:23 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: |
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Bhud wrote: | the hobby of tinkering with and riding the raw old bikes has very little overlap with that hobby, and can't be considered for replacement with electric. |
Yeah, I totally get this - if that's your thing then electric ain't going to replace it.
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote: | I'm not at all convinced that it's "greener" to scrap a 10 year oid ICE car and create more demand for a new electric one than it is to run the ICE for 5 more years. Is the mining of new ore, the transport of refined materials to factories, and all the myriad other processes involved in constructing a new vehicle - even if it ran on fresh air - is all that really more environmentally sound than keeping an older car running longer? This isn't a rhetorical question - I'm genuinely curious as to how this is chunked out both theoretically and empirically. |
Yeah, I agree - in terms of the next 20 years of my riding career (touch wood) I reckon it would be far more environmentally friendly for me to ride and maintain existing petrol vehicles over that period than have brand new electrical vehicles created for me. On the other hand I'm intrigued by the relative simplicity and lack of maintenance associated with electric.
MarJay wrote: | That is where we'll evolve to with IC engines in general, and I think bikes have more potential to be fun and exciting than cars with that technology at their core. If I can ride a guilt free electric bike that performs as well as my IC bikes with low maintenance, quiet operation and possibly no need to change gear? I'll do it. I'll miss the old stuff, but only in a whistful fuddy duddy way, not in a "Things were objectively better in the past" way, because they really weren't. |
Yeah, agree - I started out resenting the concept of an electric motorcycle - but my take on the subject has developed somewhat and this is very much my view on the petrol v electric motorcycle debate these days. ____________________ Even more boring in real life . . . |
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Zen Dog |
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Zen Dog World Chat Champion
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Posted: 16:34 - 09 Sep 2021 Post subject: Re: Electric . . . |
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droog wrote: | What do guys think? Would you be happy to ride an electric bike if it did what your current bike does - but without all of the above complications? |
I've always been pragmatic about technology, and my nostalgia only goes so far, so, yes. Building an electric mountain bike has given me an appreciation for the benefits. I've done zero maintenance to the electric bits in the time I've had it.
I think part of the difficulty is that there isn't going to be a changeover day where electric vehicles are better than ICE for all use cases. If I lived in a city and had a reasonably short commute I'd already use an electric bicycle/scooter/bike in preference to an ICE alternative. On the other end of the scale, you aren't going to be touring on an electric bike any time soon.
Fortnine has it right. The bike companies are trying to sell to the high end (because of the development costs), but the benefits are marginal at best. They should be selling to the low end where the upsides are much more apparent. An electric C90 equivalent for a decent price and from a company with decent dealer backup would clean up I think. ____________________ Current - '94 VFR750FR, '00 VFR800FI Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011 |
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Kris |
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Kris World Chat Champion
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MarJay But it's British!
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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droog Spanner Monkey
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droog |
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droog Spanner Monkey
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droog |
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droog Spanner Monkey
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 2 years, 227 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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