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Not confident/shit at riding my new, superior bike

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SirFallalot
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 25 Oct 2018
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Not confident/shit at riding my new, superior bike Reply with quote

Heya, it's my first long one. Laughing

I had a feeling I was faster/smoother/more composed, generally better, riding my CB750 than the zx9r, the latter only making up in acceleration.

This weekend I took a trip with my friend and we swapped bikes (ZX9R with K1300S), although powerful it had felt heavy when I previous took it around town so I thought it was going to be hard to handle.

We tried pillion and no pillion on both, fast roads slow roads etc. By the end of the weekend, the 3 of us agreed I ride the K1300S much better. Sure it was "harder" on twisties, but still I managed it better than the nimble ninja and felt much more relaxed/confident.

I'm a bit at a loss here. I did intent to get some tuition but have not researched much beyond IAM, would be interested in other things if anyone has suggestions.
In general it's like I forgot how to apply the "generic twist of the wrist rules"/how to ride a bike.

I tend not to accelerate too much on straights and brake early to give myself time to think through (also because my brakes don't inspire confidence, upgrade is in the works), but then I still turn in early, get too close to the separation, constantly adjust the line, arms tense up, I'm all over the fucking place...

The pillion said it felt like I was afraid of the bike, but I had no problem with a bigger and meaner one Confused but she might be right. The one thing I don't like on the ninja is the footpegs (could be further back and a tad down), but how could that one thing completely ruin the riding? Is it that it's too sensitive (back raised is raised, but honda has dropped forks and feels "similar") and I'm used to something heavy handed? What can I do to fix this, additionally to keeping on riding?

Thoughts/similar experiences?
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Lexmoto Valiant 125; 94 CB400; 96 CB750F2; 81 CB750 (restoring, lol not gonna happen); 2001 ZX9R(It's about to go :c); 2012 R1200R; 2015 R1200RS


Last edited by SirFallalot on 20:00 - 18 Oct 2021; edited 3 times in total
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 19:57 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighter bikes are twitchier. they respond to your reactions quicker. They feel much less stable.

Believe it or not but both your CB and ZX are in that category compared to to the bloater beemer.
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notabikeranym...
Formerly known as
meef



Joined: 02 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get the suspension set up. It can completely change the feel of the bike.

Also stop trying to ride it like how you ride your other bikes.

Every bike rides different.

I hated how the S1000RR handled compared to the R6 when I first got it & wasn't used to it. Then I realised the footpegs were too short, changed them, and could ride it even better than the R6. EDIT: I posted that without even fully reading your thread. It sounds like you need rearsets. Don't underestimate just how important this aspect of a bike's ergos are. It can be the complete make-or-break as i learned myself. My footpegs were only 10mm too short and it destroyed my confidence completely.

It's weird things you'll discover over time.

But really do get your suspension sorted, that can make any bike feel like shit.

And do a trackday, fuck IAM and all that, it's mostly full of pretentious cunts. You'll learn more about how to handle a bike properly on a trackday.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 20:13 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bike is the best bike in the world. It gives infinite confidence and it will look after you. Take a deep breath, drop your shoulders, now go out for a not aggressive ride. See what the result is from telling yourself that at the beginning.

Relaxation and confidence can transform the experience of the ride. Now I try to remember that headspace when I get on a bike as it often results in some of the most memorable rides. It's important not to associate it with aggression though, as you can go a bit too far with that. Smooth and safe are the watchwords.
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arry
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Re: Not confident/shit at riding my new, superior bike Reply with quote

SirFallalot wrote:
arms tense up, I'm all over the fucking place...


That's the key bit. Funky chicken. Loose arms. Relax the shoulders and elbows and shake it out.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 18 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meef wrote:
Get the suspension set up.


This - but before this, i.e. if you haven't already, at least make sure the suspension is currently at standard settings. If a previous owner has dicked around with it and basically screwed it up, it will potentially feel horrendous. Hinged in the middle, unable to hold a line through a corner, uncomfortable - running wide coming out of bends because it's squatting (so the back end compresses, the front end extends, the wheelbase increases meaning the bike lengthens, resulting in often dramatic understeer), etc. etc.

Also, before you shell out £50 quid for a set up, are you sure when your fork oil was last changed and what the bike's interval is for that (2 years / 15k miles?)? There's no point putting your forks through a set of major adjustments if the oil in them has separated into thin gruel at the top and thick gloop at the bottom because it's been in there for 20 years. Unlikely as that seems, it's not impossible.

It's also possible that the rear suspension linkages and bushes could use a greasing, and even the swing arm bearings. A bike can feel horribly unconfident and intractable through corners if something's awry in those areas - especially the latter. My zx9r tried to kill me twice - one of the swing arm pivot bearings was shagged.

So I would say before getting a set up, ensure that all those variables are properly accounted for because no amount of tweaking front fork spring tension / compression / preload / sag / etc. etc. etc. can properly correct problems of a more basic kind. However, if/when those issues are sorted, a good suspension set-up could well prove to be the making of the bike. They're great fun when set right, and usually do exactly what you think they're going to. It doesn't hurt that they're always up for a thrashing either - as you'll know, the whole bike is happiest up around 7k. And there's plenty more above that if you dare. Great bikes imo.
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SirFallalot
Trackday Trickster



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PostPosted: 00:18 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've not touched the settings actually as I thought it was "ok" (I wouldn't know better), I will check what the defaults are and look up the guide. As for getting a "setup", is this done at track days only where you can test between laps, or can you go somewhere else?
The PO was an aerospace engineer and maintained/modded it very well, so I imagine the fork oil isn't that old, but for the low cost it doesn't hurt to replace, you're right, I'll take a look at the rear linkages/bushes as well.

Next time I'll try to remember to keep a relaxed pace and see how it feels. The first rides when following some of my slower friends, the bike did feel very easy and fun, I had to hold back not to "run them over", keeping it at low revs like a granny. It's when leading/by myself that this becomes a huge problem.

Interestingly my friend found the bike both comfortable and like a "surgical scalpel/precision tool" He is taller and heavier than me (alike PO), and maybe that's enough to make a big difference on position and suspension. He has been riding for a long time so I trust his judgement but after the K1300 and ZZR14 I'm not sure he'd know if it was right or wrong. Ironically in the end we didn't want to go back to each others bike. In addition maybe I'm too heavy handed, making the bike unstable which in turn makes me nervous, which makes it move unstable etc etc in addition to suspension.

Interesting you found the rearsets made such a big difference, maybe they would help massively. I've done some research on the zx9r forums but apart from the Buel footpegs, which leave the brake and shifter in place, and couple hundred custom rearsets, I've not found a cheap option to "just tryout", I've not decided whether I want to shell out that much yet.
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Lexmoto Valiant 125; 94 CB400; 96 CB750F2; 81 CB750 (restoring, lol not gonna happen); 2001 ZX9R(It's about to go :c); 2012 R1200R; 2015 R1200RS
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are the tyres? Wear, newness, pressures.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:46 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
How are the tyres? Wear, newness, pressures.


This. I have 7.5k on my zx9r c2's Bridgestone T30s and although they're well within the legal 1mm limit minimum tread, they feel horrible. I ride a lot of single track lanes with quite pronounced crown camber and the front tyre is markedly chamfered on its offside. It's the sort of wear that, although visible, is still subtle if you've not encountered it before (it's actually more detectable by feeling the tyre's surface). This kind of uneven wear unsettles the bike on some surfaces and makes it feel pretty nervous. Needless to say new tyres correct this and pretty much transform the ride. They also make the bike feel noticeably comfier.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:57 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirFallalot wrote:
I've not touched the settings actually as I thought it was "ok" (I wouldn't know better), I will check what the defaults are and look up the guide. As for getting a "setup", is this done at track days only where you can test between laps, or can you go somewhere else?
The PO was an aerospace engineer and maintained/modded it very well, so I imagine the fork oil isn't that old, but for the low cost it doesn't hurt to replace, you're right, I'll take a look at the rear linkages/bushes as well.


This is reassuring! I can't imagine the fork oil will be too knackered - but it would be good if there was some record of when it was last changed.

I can't see whereabouts in the UK you are. I live near York and there are at least two dedicated bike suspension specialists within striking distance. I rode over to Leeds to get a set up that cost £40 earlier this year. I described how and where I ride, what I wanted from the set up (plush ride without sacrificing accuracy, w/ a preference for technical B-roads that are difficult to ride much beyond 60-70 mph, etc. - that kind of thing). I gave info about the bike - model, mileage, etc. And the job itself took about 20 minutes iirc. Maybe less. Well worth it.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 09:26 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
How are the tyres? Wear, newness, pressures.


Yep, another vote for this. If the tyres are even moderately squared off, it creates a ridge which while you're getting over will feel very twitchy. Once you're on the other side of it things improve again though. Pressures are important too.

As mentioned, checking the bike is in good fettle mechanically and doesn't have daft suspension settings dialled in is worth doing.

Last thing, and not to be patronising, but don't try and ride fast, just try and ride smoothly. Makes a world of difference.
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SirFallalot
Trackday Trickster



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PostPosted: 10:40 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tyres (Pirelli Diablo) must have around ~2.5k miles as they were practically new when I got the bike, they're wearing evenly (my CB were squared off so I know the tip over feeling Laughing) I run them at 36F 42R.

Instead of rearsets I found these brackets that'll just relocate the whole thing, will probably need extending the brake reservoir support and shifter link but this looks like the best solution, 1 inch back and down.

Does anyone here make these? Supporting the local economy and all Laughing


ThunderGuts I don't find it patronizing in the least, I'm the one asking for help! And you're right.
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Lexmoto Valiant 125; 94 CB400; 96 CB750F2; 81 CB750 (restoring, lol not gonna happen); 2001 ZX9R(It's about to go :c); 2012 R1200R; 2015 R1200RS
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 10:48 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirFallalot wrote:

I've not touched the settings actually as I thought it was "ok" (I wouldn't know better), I will check what the defaults are and look up the guide. As for getting a "setup", is this done at track days only where you can test between laps, or can you go somewhere else?

Just find a nice road that you can go up and down and set it up there. I would imagine a track setup would be different to what you want on the road anyway.
Dave moss has some good videos. I'd start with setting basic stuff like static sag for your weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlbca0SIxhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FeZJRiAXRk&t=1163s
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 11:32 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=98832

it's a zip file, it contains a scan of an ancient copy of Bike magazine. It is a generic guide to how to set up a multi adjustable sportsbike, or at least get into a very close ballpark. I've used it a few times and it bloody works.

Do this before you pay someone.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=98832

it's a zip file, it contains a scan of an ancient copy of Bike magazine. It is a generic guide to how to set up a multi adjustable sportsbike, or at least get into a very close ballpark. I've used it a few times and it bloody works.

Do this before you pay someone.


Would this be better than reverting settings back to standard using the bike's specific handbook and/or workshop manual (or a Haynes)?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:29 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
MarJay wrote:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=98832

it's a zip file, it contains a scan of an ancient copy of Bike magazine. It is a generic guide to how to set up a multi adjustable sportsbike, or at least get into a very close ballpark. I've used it a few times and it bloody works.

Do this before you pay someone.


Would this be better than reverting settings back to standard using the bike's specific handbook and/or workshop manual (or a Haynes)?


Absolutely, it's how to set the bike up for YOU, not for generic Mr Sato with Mrs Sato on the pillion seat.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:33 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
[

Would this be better than reverting settings back to standard using the bike's specific handbook and/or workshop manual (or a Haynes)?


By the way, that article is NOT "Set 2 clicks of preload and 2 turns of rebound..." It's how to set it up for you, not a good setting they previously found.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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Blah blah
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 17:20 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Re: Not confident/shit at riding my new, superior bike Reply with quote

SirFallalot wrote:


Thoughts/similar experiences?


Yup, after years of Ducati Monsters, (M750, M900, S2r 800 with a dull CBR600 in between) it was the first time I properly opened the taps on my tweaked 748 and tried to go full attack mode on my own.

I was an absolute gibbering wreck. My brain just couldn't process / handle the increase in speeds and handling compared to what I was used to.

My S2r will keep up with most stuff on the twisty stuff even 2 up, it has decent suspension and tyres and zero chicken strips, but the 748 just mocks me and makes me feel inadequate.

Reminds me of the time I stepped off a sheddy KH250 onto a slab sided GSXR750 for the first time.

I think the answer is to get someone who knows what they're doing to sort your suspension (MCT did my s2r and it's awesome) then thrash !
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thrash and ZX9/K1300 on a public road ..... Have folk really thought this statement through. That'd be useful for a chunk of 1st and maybe 2nd at the most. What you gonna do with the other 4 gears Very Happy

So for me with 140bhp to play with, i reckon i rarely use 50% max of what's on offer and it rarely goes above 6k in the lower gears and rarely above 4k in the higher ones. There isn't the road space and i don't have the talent.

I think bigger heavier less 'dropped bar' bikes change your riding focus - which without you realising it makes you relax the way you ride and the way you expect the bike to ride.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

changing the fork oil on my Thunderace made quite a noticeable improvement on the bikes handling for me.
also i found i prefer the rear tyre below the recommended pressure.
manual states 36 psi front and 42 psi rear, but im running 36 front and 38 rear.
try playing around with your pressures, thats the easiest place to start.
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notabikeranym...
Formerly known as
meef



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PostPosted: 19:25 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why's everyone run such high pressures?

36F 42R never feels good. It's just for longer tyre life.

32F 36R is much more grippy.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meef wrote:
Why's everyone run such high pressures?

36F 42R never feels good. It's just for longer tyre life.

32F 36R is much more grippy.


The Viffer turns like a bloated dead whale on lower rear pressures. I'd say 40-42 is about right for it, with 42 front being about right. That said, it's fairly lardy compared to any Sports bike.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meef wrote:
Why's everyone run such high pressures?

36F 42R never feels good. It's just for longer tyre life.

32F 36R is much more grippy.


my bike turns in far to quick on 32 psi front, it almost falls!.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



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PostPosted: 23:56 - 19 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:


The Viffer turns like a bloated dead whale on lower rear pressures. I'd say 40-42 is about right for it, with 42 front being about right. That said, it's fairly lardy compared to any Sports bike.


Aye, run a VFR soft and it'll fight you every inch of the way and do horrible things to the tyre profile in short-order. A soft front will cause a load of feathering between tread sections which quickly becomes unpleasant and intrusive. I generally run 36 on the front but it still feathers a bit, even on PR4GTs and with a properly set-up front-end. It eventually lands up with the tread worn in tapers on each block with it below the wear bar on one side of the bar and a good 2mm above it on the other. I quite often land up replacing front and rear together.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 08:48 - 20 Oct 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no substitute for time in the saddle, just riding the roads within your limits and gaining confidence. Changing tyres, suspension or brakes wont replace time on the bike. This last two years I haven't been on the bike much and I feel after nearly 40 years on a bike, I feel a bit nervous or not as comfortable on some situations. I have the skills, but haven't used them, the old saying is true, If you don't use it you lose it.
Get yourself out in all weathers, in all types of traffic and ride to your skills. If you go round a bend a bit wobbly, turn around and go do it again, there is no reason why you can't. I have a couple of stretches of road that I use as a base setting for my riding.
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