Carbs vs EFI - FIGHT!

[Easy-X]

Following on from the FortNine video Ryan's central argument is motorcycles only do port injection therefore the ECU is effectively running a carb emulation.

These vids have form for being... contentious but I think he's missing a few key points. Emulating a carb means you can emulate changing a jet up or down, swapping a fuel map out for temperature or altitude changes. TBF it's an easy job to swap out a jet on a single carb bike but you do have to stop to do it! Okay, so there's Lectron and SmartCarb missed off the video but they're more a "money to burn" item rather than a viable solution.

Anyhoo, correct me if I'm wrong but surely the elephant in the room is closed-loop. Cruising along in a deliberately lean condition to save all those asthmatic kittens while the water cooling of a modern bike compensates for the extra heat doesn't seem like something you could do with simple carbs

Don't get me wrong though, there's a beautiful simplicity in an old skool, points driven, no battery, AC lights, kick'n'go bike. A condensor and a coil is all the electronics one should need

<addendum> and I'm not sure I buy his rant against ethanol.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Bhud]

I think some more data and experimentation is needed, in this case.

Also, separating the matter of ignition from caburetion vs FI. Points ignition is by no means deficient, whatsoever. However, temperature, atmospheric conditions, turbulence effects and such are all relevant as to carbs vs FI.

[Mysteriass]

My biggest problem with EFI is that you have a closed source black box and no specifications as how to build a replacement. So they're holding a club over your head as to if you're allowed to use your own vehicle dependant on if you can get hold of a proprietary ECU that manages the FI. This is not acceptable.

So...

Speeduino
microRusEFI
Fuelino -> https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/arduino/optimized/4X/6/a/d/6adce92fe6c50731a118ad7219414c8ea67ef379_2_500x487.jpeg

https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/arduino/optimized/4X/6/a/d/6adce92fe6c50731a118ad7219414c8ea67ef379_2_500x487.jpeg

...and there's definately other attempts to create open source ECU's that run on cheap arduino development boards. If EFI is included with a vehicle it MUST BE specified in technical diagrams. We should boycott all companies who think they can black box us out of our own vehicles. We should black box them.

I'd definately like to have a go at getting an open source ECU working.

[temeluchus]

Well a carbs and injection are doing the same thing, i.e. making sure the motor gets the right amount of air mixed with fuel.

Injection lets you more finely control this, for instance allowing a nice lean closed loop. It also allows for a much larger choke size as you aren't nearly as reliant on intake velocity to ensure the fuel is mixed.

Carb's do have their advantages, they are passive devices that don't require any power, can be made with a very low technology base and actually do work very well for the most part.

You can get open source aftermarket ECU's and have a fully programmable injection setup that can be adjusted in ways you just cant do with carbs, but yes moar complicated for the home tuner.
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Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[xX-Alex-Xx]

Give me FI any day of the week. I won’t look at a bike with carbs because fook that for a laugh. See lots more posts on here from people with carb issues than injection. They might be simpler but they seem to not work properly a lot more. There’s too many benefits to FI that you don’t get with late 1800s tech.
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DILLIGAF

[A100man]

Carbs - often neglected and not properly cleaned during recommissions, plus they can easily be fuhked with by the mustgofaster brigade. Thus they get 'carbs is crap 'rep.

vs

EFI - rely on sensors 'n' stuff which are difficult to test also high pressure fuel pump microprocessor board etc.. = too much stuff to go wrong (for the amateur)

six of one ...
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Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750

Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600

[MarJay]

I've had loads of problems with carbed bikes over the years. Blocked jets, erratic fuelling, unbalanced carbs etc etc.

I've never had a problem with FI. I've probably had a similar number of FI bikes to carbed ones... go figure.

When FI bikes first came out people were like "But I can service my own carbs!" Yeah, because they need it, and FI pretty much doesn't.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Robby]

In the same video, he did touch on the big win for FI. It works properly with modern fuel.

A properly set up carb will feel no different to properly set up FI to the rider.

They both work, they both have advantages and disadvantages. I would rather be fixing a bike with a fucked carb than fucked FI, because it's cheaper to replace the parts on a carb. I would prefer to own a new bike with FI, because it's more reliable.

[Polarbear]

[Blah blah]

Having chased a fueling problem on the teenagers Mito for way too long, my love for carbs is waning, I'd say I prefer injection.

One of the floats had a little bit of fuel in, only discovered after replacing most of the rest of the carb internals then in a bored moment, shining a bright torch through it.

However, I want to get rid of the pops and bangs from the 748 but that's got a modified ECU and I expect that it's going to be somewhat more complex to sort than replacing a load of carb bits.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Why did nobody tell me carbs need regular attention? I’ve been doing bike maintenance wrong all this time.

There’s a saying, “90% of all ‘carburettor problems’ are electrical”, ie. Ignition.

On the other hand I have been having starting problems since E10 came in, which I didn’t expect. Not sure if it’s just a coincidence.

[pepperami]

Of the bikes I’ve owned and ridden in my biking life, most have been carbed.
I’m not of the “must go faster” brigade.
Only two bikes with carbs have been fuelling problematic.
A nasty BSA Bantam and a hateful Yamaha XS 400.
Even my CZ 125 with it’s Jikov carb never gave me any real fuelling problems.
Any problems with any of the other carbed bikes was relatively straightforward. (Keeping it standard).

Any fuelling problems with any of my fuel injected bikes have always had to go to the shop at a big cost and much inconvenience.

Give me slide carbs any day.

My
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I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[kolu]

EFI is cheaper whilst being compliant with modern emission requirements. Yes, you can build a carburettor that would implement a various compensations for temperature, pressure, fuel quality, but price of such component will be drastically higher than that of couple of really cheap mass produced sensors, solenoid injectors and one microcontroller. Also the EFI can compensate using exhaust oxygen sensor for different fuels to achieve near Stoichiometric ratio for most of the time - quite important for catalytic converters (as they say) and I am not sure if that can be easily done with carbs.

that is why most modern bikes use EFI.

[Ayrton]

[Easy-X]

Another "from the car world" which is not as relevant to bikes is flex fuel sensors - swapping the fuel map dependant on Ethanol content. I think Ryan's point was bikes got pushed into dropping carbs with a lot less of the tangible benefits compared to their 4 wheeled cousins.

I agree with the problem of black boxed functionality. I'm part way through a treatise on The Second Enlightenment and the ECU is a classic example of techno-feudalism where only the "guild masters" have the expertise and the plebs just put up with what they're given. It's a bit of an extreme example, how about something more basic...

Today I helped a friend fix their Harley. (Mentioned previously) it had the engine warning light and error codes related to the rear oxygen sensor. What's meant to happen is drop the bike off at the dealer along with a big stack of cash and it would later be returned in fully working order with the intervening period being a mystery to the owner of the bike. FFS they should just replace the engine warning light with a dollar sign!

Anyhoo, a generic sensor from China did the job so even if it doesn't last as long as the (probably identical) Harley part costing four times as much we've exactly isolated where the problem is just from reading a manual and surfing the Interwebs. "Closed-source" and "proprietary" are hangovers from the Old World and things like the OpenEFI, rusEFI and Speeduino are great examples of the information genie escaping from the bottle.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[WD Forte]

Fuck them tube 'experts'
FI is more efficient than carbs which is just a fancy tap/fuel dribbling device.
The downside of FI as mentioned above
is the closed shop which shuts owner out of them
or at least makes getting useful info a chore on some bikes.

Crabs are so much more tinkerable for owners who don't want or cant spend a shit ton of dosh in shop.
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bikers smell of wee

[Easy-X]

The central problem with EFI is saying "you own most of a bike, just not this bit!"

Not that free and open access to the ECU would solve much as one would still need access to a dyno... same as doing a proper job tuning a carb'd bike.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[WD Forte]

Who the fuck wants to dyno their bike?
If you race then OK but for normal uses its way OTT.
Carb/EFI whatever
Just service them properly then get on and ride the fuckers
while you still can
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bikers smell of wee

[xX-Alex-Xx]

[Bhud]

Multiple carbs can be difficult to set up correctly.

On the old Kawasaki 4-cylinder bikes, removing the bank of carbs is a pain in the neck. A lot of swearing and getting cuts all over your hands (and possibly breaking the tab that aligns your clutch cable with your clutch pivot) is on the cards when you try to remove them. Then, of course, once removed, you have to clean them and (by now) renew seals as required, between them. This means taking them all apart and splitting them. You may find that a couple of the steel pins that hold the float have seized solid. You can't head them up or you'll melt the plastic floats. You try knocking them out by bracing their supports, but you fail, and you break the carb body. You search for a new carb body, and you find they're REALLY expensive. You have no choice so you buy it anyway. You put your carbs back together. A diaphragm has a hole, you find. You can't find one so you fix it with a latex glove and vulcanising rubber. You roughly bench synchronise your carb bank. You put it back on the bike. Your carb holding rubbers are too hard. You get some evergreen oil and try to soften them. It works for 3 out of 4. You search online for a new rubber. You find they're still being made, but they're slightly different - they no longer have the brass spigot used for balancing the carbs. You cut your hands up again putting the carbs back on the bike. You start the bike and it races. You discover a very tiny vacuum leak. You solve this with some Threebond. You haven't properly balanced your carbs, and you cannot, because you don't have that carb rubber with the spigot. You ride around for a bit and the Threebond degrades at over 150 degrees. The vacuum leak returns and now you have to fix it again.

If your main purpose in buying that bike had been to enjoy riding an old beast of a sportsbike like an early GSXR, or simply to have a capable long-distance bike for commuting or touring, you hate carbs by now...

[Easy-X]

[Bhud]

[Easy-X]

We do still get overenthusiastic youngsters on the forums trying to squeeze some extra horses out of their 50cc scooter, a year seemingly like an eternity at 16. But the "carb aware" are generally the older generation
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

fwiw i've ridden good and bad of both

w800 efi was lovely - better than w650 carb, i thought
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"Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."

Mobylette Type 50 ---> Raleigh Grifter ---> Neval Minsk 125

[chickenstrip]

Never had a problem with carb bikes. Never had a problem with the two FI bikes I've owned, including one back in 1985.
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