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Ground-switched earth and aux lights

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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 09:42 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Ground-switched earth and aux lights Reply with quote

So I've got some Denali aux lights on the way to fit to my Crossrunner. The units have the capability to operate two levels of brightness, low on dipped and high on main beam. Sounds ideal in theory. But apparently there are issues with bikes using LED headlights (which mine has). A bit of googling reveals this paragraph;

Denali lights wrote:
Fitment Note: Vehicles equipped with LED headlights may utilize a ground switched circuit, which will not trigger the DataDim's function with the factory high beam controls. Vehicles with ground switched headlights will require the DENALI 2.0 DrySeal™ Hi-Low-Off Waterproof Switch in addition to the DataDim™ to toggle between high beam and low beam.


So, how do I know if my bike has a ground switched circuit or not? Is there any way to tell? Worst case scenario I get the 3 way switch and it becomes a manual exercise, but I'd much rather have it switch automatically on the main beam switch.

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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 09:57 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should be able to tell from a wiring diagram.

Or possible multimeter test. If it's earth switched, you should have power both sides of the high beam wiring at the light, even when it's on low if you test between the lamp and a frame earth. A switched earth will probably have one wire putting power into the lamp all the time and two live "earths" going to the switch/relay.

Effectively going Battery > Lamp > Switch > Earth rather than the conventional Battery > Switch > Lamp > earth.

Although with canbus systems etc, it might not be as simple as that.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this, which is for the 8th gen 800F, but they have pretty much identical headlights (if not identical) - if this reveals anything?

Edit: there are four lamps, two dipped and two main beam. If I read that diagram correctly, does this suggest it's "conventionally" wired as there's an earth showing off the lamps?

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/uploads/monthly_2016_07/VFR_Headlights001.jpg.622ed06ec2a77697ab63e5850f3010de.jpg
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A100man
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
Found this, which is for the 8th gen 800F, but they have pretty much identical headlights (if not identical) - if this reveals anything?

Edit: there are four lamps, two dipped and two main beam. If I read that diagram correctly, does this suggest it's "conventionally" wired as there's an earth showing off the lamps?

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/uploads/monthly_2016_07/VFR_Headlights001.jpg.622ed06ec2a77697ab63e5850f3010de.jpg


Agreed there's no switches on dems earths.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

We think a probability of this working then? As it's just "reading" the signal, not actually using it to power anything, hopefully it won't go bang.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

That wiring diagram doesn't make much sense. I thought the whole point of a relay was not to have all the current running through the switch.

Regardless I suspect the DataDim controller is looking for power to appear on its signal line to activate the intensity level. The opposite logic would be "signal line needs to be shorted to ground to activate." Anyhoo, should work on your setup by tying into anywhere along the hi-beam wire, between the switch and the relay would probably be optimal.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
That wiring diagram doesn't make much sense. I thought the whole point of a relay was not to have all the current running through the switch.

Regardless I suspect the DataDim controller is looking for power to appear on its signal line to activate the intensity level. The opposite logic would be "signal line needs to be shorted to ground to activate." Anyhoo, should work on your setup by tying into anywhere along the hi-beam wire, between the switch and the relay would probably be optimal.


I suspect the switchgear wiring to the relay will be harder to get to than popping off the back of the headlight cover. Any reason why it's better to intercept it there rather than out of the back of headlight?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:02 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
Easy-X wrote:
That wiring diagram doesn't make much sense. I thought the whole point of a relay was not to have all the current running through the switch.

Regardless I suspect the DataDim controller is looking for power to appear on its signal line to activate the intensity level. The opposite logic would be "signal line needs to be shorted to ground to activate." Anyhoo, should work on your setup by tying into anywhere along the hi-beam wire, between the switch and the relay would probably be optimal.


I suspect the switchgear wiring to the relay will be harder to get to than popping off the back of the headlight cover. Any reason why it's better to intercept it there rather than out of the back of headlight?


Because your aux lights will still work even if the relay goes pop.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
That wiring diagram doesn't make much sense. I thought the whole point of a relay was not to have all the current running through the switch.


(Assuming the low beam is always on with the ignition), the switch is just tapping 12 volts off that to activate the high beam relay when you flick it to high. That's then sending a signal to the LED driver to fire up the high beam, and sending 12v to the high beam indicator. It's not a great diagram.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
That wiring diagram doesn't make much sense. I thought the whole point of a relay was not to have all the current running through the switch.


The main power to the light is hardwired to the light/LED driver, goes nowhere near the switch. The switch and relay is effectively a logic circuit to tell the LED driver to switch on and to turn on the high beam indicator. Relay seems surplus to requirements, I'd imagine they're using it to make sure they get a clean make/break.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

The main power to the light is hardwired to the light/LED driver, goes nowhere near the switch. The switch and relay is effectively a logic circuit to tell the LED driver to switch on and to turn on the high beam indicator. Relay seems surplus to requirements, I'd imagine they're using it to make sure they get a clean make/break.


Does this suggest the power to the switch might not necessarily be a clean 12v and to get that (which is what the DataDim wants) it'd be more reliable to get directly from the feed to the headlight lamp itself?

Edit: and yes, dipped is on whenever the ignition is on. Thumbs Up
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:


Because your aux lights will still work even if the relay goes pop.


Do you mean from a resilience point of view, or are you suggesting there's the potential for the aux lights to get fried? Not sure how the latter would happen as it's only a signal wire so unless there was a breakdown in the DataDim unit allowing big current to flow?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming the above diagram is the same on your bike (fair bet, Honda like to do the same things the same way).

If you're looking for a signal to tell your lighting unit it's on high beam, I'd personally be seeing how accessible that wire between the relay and the high beam warning light/driver is. That effectively IS a high beam signal. Also if something failed, you'd only lose high beam. Fairly safe bet it's a blue wire because that's the colour Honda have used for switched high beam since the 60's.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:


Because your aux lights will still work even if the relay goes pop.


Do you mean from a resilience point of view, or are you suggesting there's the potential for the aux lights to get fried? Not sure how the latter would happen as it's only a signal wire so unless there was a breakdown in the DataDim unit allowing big current to flow?


I mean if the relay pops and you lose main beam the aux lights will still work as dipped and main.
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davebike
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PostPosted: 08:03 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTDTGTS with an NC750x
you need to intercept the Earth going wire from the dip switch
The power from the headlight will not run a relay so
Use the earth going feed on main beam to work two relays
One feed earth back to the bike switching the headlight and the main beam indicator
The other to switch you uxorially lights
Yes itis a fiddle but not that bad
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

you might consider swapping out the high beam relay with a two-pole relay, using the additional pole to signal the "DataDim".
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So managed to track down the main beam switch wire as it exits a massive connector block (buried under all the fairings - fun!). I’ve only 1-2cm of wire showing before it vanishes into a sheathed section with all the other wires plus there’s a silicone sleeve so I can’t see the Posi-tap working. Only thing I can think of is to cut it, strip it, solder in the signal wire and use heat shrink on it. Unless anything be has a better idea? It’s this one where the screwdriver is held (stinkwheel - correct it’s still blue!).

Edit: I checked this worked with the Denali lights by shoving the signal wire into the back of the block and it does! Clean 12v supply - thank you Honda for using proper switches and not PCBs.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to take terminals out of mouldings. You get a special little fiddle tool for lifting the latch. You can also but terminals for mouldings.

Best way would be to wiggle the terminal out, remove the terminal, crimp a new terminal onto both wires then click it back in again.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 17:01 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine trying to find the matching terminal connector very challenging! I will play with the wiring a bit more and see if I can reveal enough to comfortably solder it.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 27 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
I imagine trying to find the matching terminal connector very challenging!


Pretty sure they are using sumitomo connector blocks these days.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 02:40 - 29 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
I’ve only 1-2cm of wire showing before it vanishes into a sheathed section with all the other wires plus there’s a silicone sleeve so I can’t see the Posi-tap working.

Don't know what a Posi-tap is, but if it's anything like a Scotchlok, I advise against that idea. Those things might work in a sterile environment, but in motor vehicles, vibration and corrosion tend to weaken the connection over time.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 29 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeffyjeff wrote:
ThunderGuts wrote:
I’ve only 1-2cm of wire showing before it vanishes into a sheathed section with all the other wires plus there’s a silicone sleeve so I can’t see the Posi-tap working.

Don't know what a Posi-tap is, but if it's anything like a Scotchlok, I advise against that idea. Those things might work in a sterile environment, but in motor vehicles, vibration and corrosion tend to weaken the connection over time.


It's effectively a screwed-in needle. Better than the ones that strip the wires as a Posi-Tap pierces the wire rather than cuts it, but yes I do agree. It's also quite a bulky (relatively) connector which isn't compatible with the silicone sleeve the wiring sits within. Given the hassle associated with getting to the wire in the first place, I want the solution to be fit and forget!
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