Digital photography

[RhynoCZ]

Let's say I want to get into digital photography. I reached all the possible limitations of my smartphone camera (pixel 4a) and now I'm wondering about buying a digital camera. Buying a more expensive smartphone isn't really the answer, as they all shoot pretty much the same pictures and they all use a tiny, mostly a 12 or so Mpx, sensor.

Anyway, how does one even start? My brother works in a electronics store, employees discount, we're talking like 20-35% off on various digital cameras with interchangeable lenses. The used market isn't really for me, then. That's the way to go I suppose. I want to learn stuff, not just push the button, while I can't be bothered with shooting on film.

EDIT: I checked the used market and people ask for used cameras the same money or even more than what I could get a brand new unit for.

So, what do you use and what do you recommend? What features are recommended to have. I mainly shoot stills of nature, urban areas, and industrial stuff.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[stinkwheel]

Have a look at "bridge cameras" which have many of the features of a DSLR without as much of the complexity. They have improved optics and a lot of settings you can fiddle with but retain the option of not fiddling with settings if you don't want to.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Howling Terror]

It's always about the lens and less the megapixels.

I thought about getting a body (full frame sensor) and separate lenses but know I'm not going to take a bag full of kit out with me because it's not a passion.

Pretty much all fullframes, micro 4/3rds APS-C cameras made in the last 5 years are massively feature packed and very capable. Most do 4K video too.

The 3rd party lenses often have IBIS even if the body doesn't which could come in useful for Telephoto shots.

There is no best camera...each have drawbacks.

Temptation is to get something like a Sony A7IV and a F3.5 18-200mm lens thinking you got the bases covered. That's a gamble in my book for one who wants to get into photography.

Gamble being will you still be willing to haul it around or will you think it's a hassle to setup the tripod to get that sunrise photo.
Then there's the lens. ..wishing you'd gone for the GM primes and being stuck with a massive jack--of-all-trades.

Weather sealed is recommended.
Does it have image stabilisation and is it that important.
A menu system that isn't overly convoluted.
Custom buttons for your favourite scenes (Sometimes being in manual mode means you've missed the shot so having those custom modes set makes sense)
Good battery life.
Good EVF and good screen resolution. Articulated screen useful?
How does it feel in your hands...slippy...thumb resting on buttons...grip too small.
Does it get regular firmware updates to fix or add functions.

Then lenses...Don't buy cheap. Expect to have maybe 2-3 types to cover your needs. ND filters and polarisation filter. Maybe a natural light filter or a graduated ND. Some cameras have in-built ND filters.
A poor lens will ruin your shots with LOCA..or soft at the edges or hunting as it tries to focus....or slow to focus. Some lenses are rubbish at sun stars if that's important.

Invest in lots of research and see if you're going to use all the kit.
If you're taking great shots with your phone then yeah go for it.
If your compositions are average then a £5k Leica M series won't take better photographs.

Asking which camera to get is like asking what bike to buy. Lots of owner bias.

Best of luck.
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Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project

[Polarbear]

Wifie has a bridge camera, Canon something with a 40 times zoom. I have her old one, a Sony but I mostly use my old Canon IXUS 145 that I've had for donkeys years because it's tiny, slips in my pocket and is better than a phone cam (certainly better than the cam on my Motorola).

I can't be bothered to lug a big camera around but then I'm more a snap person than an photo artist.

The thing is, as HT says, there is a huge choice and it's a lot of money to find you don't like the camera after a few months.

Have fun.
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[rpsmith79]

I know you have somewhat dismissed the used market, but MPB.com is worth a look

I have traded in/bought most of my gear from them, very reasonable prices, and if you don't get on with it, trade it in for something else

Currenty i'm using a Sony A6100 (up until recently i was sill using the older A6000 though, which is still very capable), which is nice and compact, and the fact Sony were one of the first into the mirrorless camera market, it means there are plenty of 2nd hand lenses about for good money, as you will find, its the glass that costs the most when it comes to cameras, not so much the body you put it on

It also very much depends what you want to use it for

Wildlife/sport (football and the like), you really need a full blown DSLR, as the long lenses simply aren't available for mirrorless systems

Landscape, some will argue you 'need' full frame (the size of the sensor), i would argue otherwise, and have only ever used 'crop frame' sensors

Portraiture, a DSLR will have a better choice of lenses, but mirrorless will get you by if this isn't your main focus

Travel, mirrorless all the way, due to is compact size and interchangable lenses
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Current Bike: Honda CG125 ES4 // Honda CB600FS Hornet // Triumph Street Triple R

[doggone]

Sony have a decent system now which is very versatile for using lenses from other makers with adapter and good selection of 3rd party ones for them e.g Sigma/Tamron.
You need to go mirrorless now there is no comparison and typically they are smaller bodies if larger lens.
The Sony A7iii was a hot camera a couple of years ago but they have brought out A7iv so the A7iii is discounted now you could get the body under €1000 especially used. A7C is also a good choice with newer colour science.

You need to shoot RAW and get used to some decent software and Adobe Lightroom is hands down best.. You don't have to pay for it

[stinkwheel]

Mind you, the best pictures I've ever taken have been one handed with a compact digital.

It's more about timing and getting the shot than the equipment you use for it. The equipment often makes it easier to get the shot.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[doggone]

[ThunderGuts]

So few things from my perspective; as suggested above, some of the best photographs can come from an unexpected meeting of events, e.g. the sun suddenly breaks through the cloud at sunset on an otherwise miserable day. In those scenarios, the chances of you having a massive kitbag of camera stuff with you is low because the weather looks naff, but a good quality compact - quite possibly as there's little penalty with carrying it "just in case".

The other side of the coin though is if you're planning your photography a bit more. There having more control is everything and in my opinion, a dSLR is the way to go. All dSLRs can be used in "simple mode", but there is the capability to go further should you want it. It doesn't have to be a pro-grade dSLR (unless you have money to burn), around £500 should net you something half decent with a kit lens.

Brings me to the last point; the glass is everything. No point have a million megapixels if it's a toy lens on the front. This goes for all cameras by the way, including those with a non-interchangeable lens, so watch out for keenly priced compacts shouting about big megapixel numbers - chances are to make the price work they've taken shortcuts on the glass. Herein lies the other benefit of dSLRs; get an established line (I use Canon EOS myself, have done for over 20 years) and you can get a whole range of lenses, used and new. I still use lenses I bought for my 35mm cameras on my dSLR. Plus, if in the future you decide to upgrade your camera, if you have good lenses you can just buy a new camera body and continue to use the same lenses.
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TG.

[martin734]

I do a lot of wildlife photography. My camera is a 15 MP Canon 50D and I have 3 lenses; a Canon 35-80 mm f/4.0 which I don't use that often as it is really only suitable for indoor use, a Canon 70-300 mm f/5 which is my "utility lens", very good outdoors and not bad indoors, and a Tamron 150-600 mm f/5. This lens is superb for outdoor photography, useless indoors and bloody heavy! You really need to use a tripod with this lens and hand-shooting at anything less than a shutter speed of 1/250 almost always end up blurred.
The best thing about digital photography is that is costs nothing to learn with, you can shoot as many pictures as you like and it costs nothing.

I would definitely start with some 2nd hand kit as long as it is from a reputable seller. My personal choice would always be a DSLR. Bridge cameras are good, but their fixed lens is always going to be a compromise. Decent SLR bodies can be got quite cheaply, but decent lenses are always going to be expensive. Lenses are what determines if you will be able to get good pictures. A lower end body like the canon xxxxD or xxxD series with good lenses wil almost always out-perform mid and high end bodies like the xxD and xD series with poor lenses. Sensor size is also more important than pixel count. Your average phone camera has a 12-16 mp sensor that is 28 square millimetres. My SLR has 15 mp sensor that is 368 square millimetres, more than ten times the size, this means that the sensor's pixels are much bigger. Bigger pixels means better contrast, dynamic range, sharpness and depth of field. Generally, the bigger the sensor, the better quality pictures you will get for a given resolution.

The best thing you can do to learn is to take lots and lots of pictures. Read the camera's manual to see what the various modes and settings do and take loads of photos using different modes and settings until you get experienced enough to know what settings work best with what lighting conditions and environments and with which lenses. All cameras have an automatic mode which sets the shutter speed, aperture and exposure for you, and will usually provide you with very decent pictures in most conditions. But by learning how to use more manual settings, you will learn how to take great photos in almost all conditions.

These are some shots I have taken with my 300 mm and 600 mm lenses.
https://i.ibb.co/0VG7Cbd/IMG-0257.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/r6V9v53/IMG-0254.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fCghKpW/IMG-4222.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/98fwnNV/IMG-0002.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Fg9nwRt/IMG-2365.jpg
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Current bike: ST1100 "Big Red"

[A100man]

[stinkwheel]

And here are some I've taken with my compact Ricoh "rugged" camera (which has a 1cm macro mode which proves very handy for electronics and suchlike, it's like having a microscope).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVkljTL5UdfNipkfjOf-288t-DF0UrnLFaDQuqMZyQMdf47-4HL-YTVjGIklz_q2H4gYTx8y5RGx96sasTdvPZANA75mTYiG5UnqMD1zpEs2iv6MaNai-CI5SHb9kQlGQO5cwVJVbqVcgo-EJt5grOA=w1283-h962-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWtxPqSpIPO5OLbowsmaZobm9Hl7jALvb6GXq1LqMBdfdxbCo2uMFT-rlojfzQS_BSBv9mPmLOPqhEuF8Ny8Jjvl5bliSCv_-GO1wQ1X242QGhPfxyB-XGQMeSGAvTVmhSbobLtcRPD70L_S22r27KN=w1292-h969-no

EDIT: The main downside of this camera is it has a glass cover over the lens which makes it waterproof but also tends to cause severe lens flare, it's rubbish for close-up flash stuff (but oddly good for extreme macro because it has round the lens illumination). The main benefit is it can be hung off my bouyancy aid with a carbiner when I go out canoeing and can be turned on and used one-handed.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[RhynoCZ]

Thank you all for the info and pictures.

I'm gonna have to do some thinking now.

Before I even asked here, I had my eye on Sony A6xxx series, but I found the rabbit hole.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[RhynoCZ]

In the mean time, here's some of many, many pictures from my smartphone camera...

I had to reduce the resolution of the pictures to upload them here, so a bit of sharpness is gone.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Tarmacsurfer]

To throw another hat into the ring, a lot of people poo-poo the micro 4/3 system but I really like them as a daily driver for travel and general mooching around.

I use an old Olympus OM-D E-M10 (the first gen) as a carry around, it's a relatively small body so easy to have on you all day or on a hike. Last time I was in Japan it lived in a second hand bumbag with a few lenses and a cleaning kit.

The OM-D series in particular was a good step for me, on the one hand I had reached the limits of my phone camera but I didn't want something obscenely expensive and delicate I'd be terrified of breaking while learning more. It will happily work as a point and click, but there's a full range of manual configuration and an excellent assortment of decent (and comparitively cheap) lenses.
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I'm immortal. Well, so far.

[Stevie GooGs]

ive been doing photography for the last 20 years. My advice is it can be a serious money pit as you will find that somethings you do need other equipment for.

My advice would be spend the money on the glass rather than the body and pick your manufacture wisely as you don't really want to have to change.

Depending on your budget i would try and get a 24-70 or 24-105 lens and whatever body you can get. That focal range would do most of your everyday type shots. You would then want to add a 70-200 which tend to be very sharp for doing more of your subject / portrait shots. Then a 100-400 or longer for wildlife / long range shots and then maybe a 17-40mm for wider landscapes.

A full frame 50mpx camera can give you more room to crop which means you don't need to get as close etc however a crop sensor can be fine depending on what your wanting to do with the shots after.

Ive transfered from photography to video now, i still do photos but finding im enjoying video more but the same problem ive spent a small fortune on equipment.
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Current: 2019 Yamaha T7 -> 2015 KTM Superduke R | 2000 Yamaha R1 Past -> 2009 KTM 990 SM -> 2005 kawasaki ZX10r -> 2000 Honda CBR 600 FY -> 2002 Honda XLV 125 Varadero
Bike Pics! -> My Photography Website

[ThunderGuts]

Just to add to the last post, agree with the focal lengths but these are 35mm/full frame equivalents. Unless you have a full frame dSLR (expensive) then you’ll want shorter focal lengths to give the same range. My “everyday lens” is a 17-55 which gives me everywhere from a half decent wide angle through to a short telephoto.
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TG.

[RhynoCZ]

Today, when I browsed the used/new camera market something occurred to me. Digital cameras are electronic devices, so they do emit heat when in operation. Living in an area where sub-zero winter temperatures are nothing out of ordinary, is condensation a real issue when taking pictures outside in winter? Howling Terror talked about weather sealing, however that can hardly prevent condensation inside the camera body/lense, can it?
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Howling Terror]

Misting can happen but it's usually when you take an already warm lens into a cold environment.

Using an external filter adds to the possibility it will mist.

Similar to a pinlock visor....it's rare.

Weather sealing....the dials and buttons operate in light rain. Still prudent to give it a wipe and try not to get it really wet.
Also keeps dust out.

This fella takes shots in Alaska.

https://youtu.be/Sv_mELBsdTw

Makes a good point about batteries.
____________________
Diabolical homemade music Bandcamp and Soundcloud
Singer songwriter, Artist and allround good bloke Listen to Andrew Susan Johnston here
The Harry Turner Project

[doggone]

You also need to be aware of risk of fungus getting inside lens and camera body if they get damp for any reason then are left in poor storage e.g. In a bag or slightly damp cupboard.
The risk is actually highest in summer when house heating isn't on.
Growth often starts from tiny bits of organic matter like a pollen grain is enough.
Dust on sensors is something else to be prepared for it can happen with any camera but the interchangeable lens types are more vulnerable. Cleaning periodically is no big deal, but you need to research correct way - start with a bulb type air blower. You need special fluid and tools to deal with anything more seriously sticky on it (e.g. That pollen again)

[RhynoCZ]

So, it's done. I've made my decision. I'm getting the Fujifilm X-T200.

Taking all the information here into consideration I was still set on buying a used Sony A6400, however people ask silly money for used units. I've got no point of reference, meaing I don't know what's good/bad etc., or what suits me, so I've decided not to spend big for my first digital camera. I can't tell what I want yet.

Weather sealing is hard to come by in the entery level market, so I gave up on that. I know, I might be sorry in the future. I knew a few things though. I wanted a body with an electronic view finder and with a popular enough lense mount system, for when/if I decide to upgrade the ''glass''. As I understand this hobby, once you pick a lense mount system, you should stick with it. I also wanted something modern enough, so the device has some features making the learning curve easier for me. I would also prefer stabilised sensor, however that's not very common in the low-mid range market anyway and many manufacturers solve this with a stabilised lense, just like Fujifilm did with the kit lens that comes with the X-T200. I already own a tiny tripod, so I might use that.

Now, why Fujifilm X-T200? Well, the initial investment was partially a deciding factor here. I got a brand new X-T200 body, with the XC 15-45mm kit lense and 64GB SD card, for about £370. Even on the used market £370 does not get you far.

I also kept in mind what ThunderGuts said, the glass is everything. All the cameras I've considered run a 24 Mpx APS-C CMOS sensor, so in raw they all should have similar results anyway. The more expensive/advanced cameras just make taking nice pictures easier. But, I might be wrong.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[ThunderGuts]

Good stuff - enjoy it! You're right to an extent about getting a lens system and sticking with it, but that only really applies to the camera collection (!) you have. In reality, if you want a change, nothing stopping you selling the lot and buying into a new system. Lenses tend to hold value pretty well, even if the bodies are more prone to depreciation.

Next step is to get some half decent processing software. I have used GIMP for ages (yes it is work safe, no it isn't what it looks like): https://www.gimp.org/)

It's a freeware photo editing software which is pretty powerful yet devoid of ads. There's a plugin called RawTherapee which will let you process RAW images (a whole other topic, but basically when you shoot in jpg the camera makes decisions about refining the picture and in the process some information is lost, with RAW you make those decisions so the image you import onto the computer retains everything - it means you can pull detail out of shadows, get better colours etc..).

Here's an example (hardly an inspiring photo, but a good example as the contrast is quite severe); the first photo is the "in camera" jpg with a bit of post processing. Notice the wooded areas on the mountain slopes are muddy and lacking detail:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/nzjpg.jpg

This shot, taken at the same time, was using RAW. With a similar (minimal) level of post-processing, I've been able to draw far more detail out of the wooded areas, yet retain pleasing contrast (to my eye anyway).

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/nzraw.jpg
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TG.

[RhynoCZ]

I'm familiar with GIMP, I used it before.

I am very surprised how intuitive the X-T200 is. I'm gonna have to read through the user's manual, of course, but the out of the box experience is very pleasant. Not that I've got experience with any other digital cameras.

I do like the electronic view finder and also that you do not have to use nor look at the LCD display, you can flip it and close it, so it stays hidden. When I'm clueless I do use it though. It's got very smartphone like interface. I also like the built in film simulations, even though a real photographes wouldn't even bother with such thing.

Once I figure out how to make nice pictures with the X-T200, I'll upload some. The only thing I'm not quite happy with at the moment is the battery charging time.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Tarmacsurfer]

It can get addictive. I have a couple of longer zooms but I have to say my favourite lenses by far for street (and most landscape, tbf) are primes, the clarity of shot in even a cheaper prime when compared to a zoom (other than the really expensive pro level kit) is unreal.
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I'm immortal. Well, so far.

[ThunderGuts]