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The Worlds biggest Aicraft, no sorry White Elephant

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A100man
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 07 Jan 2022    Post subject: The Worlds biggest Aicraft, no sorry White Elephant Reply with quote
Airlander.

Not flown (or crashed again to be fair) in four years yet government and private investors are still piling loot into this hapless ever-morphing white elephant. A triumph of marketing over substance? - a 'production run' is now planned for 2025 so we can all 'rethink the skies'..

..yeah right on.

It may happen, I've been now to be wrong - but I wouldn't bet your trousers on it.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 07 Jan 2022    Post subject: Re: The Worlds biggest Aicraft, no sorry White Elephant Reply with quote
A100man wrote:
Airlander.

Not flown (or crashed again to be fair) in four years yet government and private investors are still piling loot into this hapless ever-morphing white elephant. A triumph of marketing over substance? - a 'production run' is now planned for 2025 so we can all 'rethink the skies'..

..yeah right on.

It may happen, I've been now to be wrong - but I wouldn't bet your trousers on it.


I suppose it's green credentials have given it a recent boost. Electric, we can do that Sir, no smoggies here.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 07 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
People in the know are properly behind it. The smaller prototypes have flown successfully, but there was an accident at some point which put a lot of people off... Who knows if it will work, but people who know their stuff in the aviation industry think it's a huge deal.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 07 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah yes, Crashlander (Unfair, I know.)
It’s impressive in appearance but apart from staying aloft for up to 5 days (manned) I’m not sure what its unique selling point is, nor whether the sheer size of it is a problem.
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 08 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had to look it up
it's err....... umm...
I spose it's safe to call it big
butt
oops I mean but
its kinda..... y'know
Embarassed Embarassed

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flyer.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2FHAV-Airlander-2.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
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A100man
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PostPosted: 09:55 - 09 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
People in the know are properly behind it. The smaller prototypes have flown successfully, but there was an accident at some point which put a lot of people off... Who knows if it will work, but people who know their stuff in the aviation industry think it's a huge deal.


I can see the hangars where it used to fly ( 3-4 times in 2017) from my work. - hence my interest I suppose (they moved out after the last crash - I assume because of the rent ). The 'small' one Airlander 10 is still bigger than a jumbo but only has a handful of trial hours to its name. The 50 is still just drawing board as far as I know. Production has been promised 'next year' for the past 4 years. The advantages over a helicopter seem slight to me.. The concept has been running for over 10 years when a previous incarnation of the company sold an engineering sample to the US DOD then bought it back again - that was the one that flew, crashed then blew away. The use model changes each year e.g. from disaster relief, to tourism to telecoms?
I cant help thinking its a solution looking for a problem. But somehow they've kept going so there must be something I don't know, there's a forthcoming IPO which will probably be decisive.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 09 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:

I cant help thinking its a solution looking for a problem. But somehow they've kept going so there must be something I don't know, there's a forthcoming IPO which will probably be decisive.


Helicopters use extraordinary amounts of fuel for the lifting capacity they have. Aircraft use amounts that are nearly as eye watering, just not quite *as* eye watering. The lifting in this case is done by lighter than air gas, so for cargo? This is the way forward. You can also power them with electricity too - So the problem would be that problem that shifting cargo around the earth generates more CO2 than all the cars in the world. If we could crack that nut, we might be able to keep our internal combustion transport. Maybe.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 09 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
A100man wrote:

I cant help thinking its a solution looking for a problem. But somehow they've kept going so there must be something I don't know, there's a forthcoming IPO which will probably be decisive.


Helicopters use extraordinary amounts of fuel for the lifting capacity they have. Aircraft use amounts that are nearly as eye watering, just not quite *as* eye watering. The lifting in this case is done by lighter than air gas, so for cargo? This is the way forward. You can also power them with electricity too - So the problem would be that problem that shifting cargo around the earth generates more CO2 than all the cars in the world. If we could crack that nut, we might be able to keep our internal combustion transport. Maybe.

I’m still not seeing what it has to offer compared to slow but massive cargo ships, fast air freighters or more flexible and relatively cheaply-hangared helicopters. Militarily it’s vulnerable. I think it’s also primarily diesel-powered, augmented by electric motors. It might be lighter than air (with expensive helium) but unless it plies the trade winds for free it has to be driven.
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steve the grease
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PostPosted: 00:55 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
As far as I can see , it's a good idea, but something the size of a football pitch and effectively weighing nothing is always going to have a problem getting blown around by the wind.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

I’m still not seeing what it has to offer compared to slow but massive cargo ships, fast air freighters or more flexible and relatively cheaply-hangared helicopters. Militarily it’s vulnerable. I think it’s also primarily diesel-powered, augmented by electric motors. It might be lighter than air (with expensive helium) but unless it plies the trade winds for free it has to be driven.


Is it that much faster than a container ship anyway. Some can do 25-30 mph and I doubt if that balloon does much more than 50.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's a great site on the history of all things airship. You can easily lose a few hours browsing here.

Specifically there's also a small section on Airlander history

https://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/HAV%20Airlander/index.html
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
A little off topic but I was really surprised to find out where we get helium from. It's produced by the radioactive decay of uranium and thorium and collects in gas pockets in the Earth.

While helium is literally the second most abundant element in existence, the vast majority of it is in space and contained in stars and gas clouds. Due to it being the second lightest element, it readily leaves the atmosphere (due to how high it rises - getting away from the influence of the Earth's magnetic field and gets carried off by strong solar winds from solar flares) along with hydrogen but lucky for us that the vast majority of hydrogen on Earth is bonded to oxygen in the form of water and is bound here.

When you realise how rare and scarce helium is and how that once it's gone: it's fucking gone - it's crazy that as a species we waste it with fucking party balloons and making our voices squeaky.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

I’m still not seeing what it has to offer compared to slow but massive cargo ships, fast air freighters or more flexible and relatively cheaply-hangared helicopters. Militarily it’s vulnerable. I think it’s also primarily diesel-powered, augmented by electric motors. It might be lighter than air (with expensive helium) but unless it plies the trade winds for free it has to be driven.


The thing with aircraft is, you're not burning fuel to propel the aircraft, you're burning fuel to lift the aircraft. With an airship, the gas is doing the lifting, and the engines are just providing a small amount of propulsion.

Ships have massive drag from the water, an air ship has a lot less drag making electric power more feasible. Container ships are very bad for the environment. I think this is a best of a bad bunch scenario where you *might* be able to go to electric power to carry cargo.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:


When you realise how rare and scarce helium is and how that once it's gone: it's fucking gone - it's crazy that as a species we waste it with fucking party balloons and making our voices squeaky.


Aye - and they lost 1.3 million cubic feet of it too when it blew away and deflated. I can't recall how much the gas cost but it was a LOT, what's more the skin is permeable IIRC so it needs regular topping up - thus there is a cost in getting that lift.

I'll dig some more on those costs maybe.

In terms of payload the Airlander 10 is err 10 tons and the Airlander 50 will be , wait for it.. 50 tons. Container ships meanwhile can carry over 20,000 20 foot containers.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:


Ships have massive drag from the water, an air ship has a lot less drag making electric power more feasible. Container ships are very bad for the environment.


Not true though, emissions per tonne cargo carried they are just about the most economical and envoinmently friendly way of transporting cargo. How many journeys would a 50 tonne capacity airship have to make to carry the equivalent of 20000 container carrying ship, OK, ships burn diesel but there are exhaust gsas scrubbers that clean a lot of the crap out as well as clean burn engines. Then you have LNG powered marine engines which are much cleaner than diesels.

Those airships are maybe good for carrying a large load a few hundred miles instead of sending it by road or rail. I can't see any other use for them.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 11 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I suggest they get rid of that barbed wire fence.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13AC3/production/_90897508_sbna_airlanderbadlanding1.jpg
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Robby
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 12 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's an idea worth exploring. Would be interesting with some lightweight solar panels on the top as well, there's a lot of surface area so the could reduce the requirements for batteries.

As for helium, yes it's expensive and finite. If these were going to be used as cargo drones (without humans on board) then it would be tempting to use hydrogen.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 01:51 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
there is a smaller airship flying from Santa Pod to the Shortstown Hangars on Sunday,

I did see the airlander from Graze Hill up above Mosbury Golf course a few years back

but the way they are building houses right upto and around the airship sheds.... won't belong before the new householders start moaning about it

TBH I am soooooo bored with John Bunyan this, and John Bunyan that, the airships is a much more interesting association
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 03:03 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
It's an idea worth exploring. Would be interesting with some lightweight solar panels on the top as well, there's a lot of surface area so the could reduce the requirements for batteries.

As for helium, yes it's expensive and finite. If these were going to be used as cargo drones (without humans on board) then it would be tempting to use hydrogen.


snag is, no one wants another Hindenberg

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fc7c0df58fee3df9fb182433d4e9cdd5a%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D7466834&f=1&nofb=1

But
with Hydrogen giving more lift at a fraction of the price of Helium
there are some folk still thinking about it and with modern materials and safety standards, who knows? they may find a workable and not so risky method

This lot are talking about it
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-cargo/
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A100man
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
thx1138 wrote:
there is a smaller airship flying from Santa Pod to the Shortstown Hangars on Sunday,

I did see the airlander from Graze Hill up above Mosbury Golf course a few years back

but the way they are building houses right upto and around the airship sheds.... won't belong before the new householders start moaning about it

TBH I am soooooo bored with John Bunyan this, and John Bunyan that, the airships is a much more interesting association
ng

I'll keep an eye open. Agreed the AHT website is quite absorbing too.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
WD Forte wrote:

snag is, no one wants another Hindenberg

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fc7c0df58fee3df9fb182433d4e9cdd5a%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D7466834&f=1&nofb=1

But
with Hydrogen giving more lift at a fraction of the price of Helium
there are some folk still thinking about it and with modern materials and safety standards, who knows? they may find a workable and not so risky method

This lot are talking about it
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/h2clipper-hydrogen-dirigible-cargo/


The R101 and Hindenberg disasters are somewhat overplayed. Both burned with visible flame, whereas burning hydrogen produces an almost invisible flame. They reckon that the dope used on the envelope was more flammable than the gas inside, hence why they both went up like a roman candle. I'm not saying the hydrogen wouldn't burn, but it's probably no worse than carrying a can of petrol especially at the pressures you're talking about in an airship.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
The R101 and Hindenberg disasters are somewhat overplayed. Both burned with visible flame, whereas burning hydrogen produces an almost invisible flame. They reckon that the dope used on the envelope was more flammable than the gas inside, hence why they both went up like a roman candle. I'm not saying the hydrogen wouldn't burn, but it's probably no worse than carrying a can of petrol especially at the pressures you're talking about in an airship.

There are counter-arguments to that in the link below.
It also suggests advocates for hydrogen cars have a role in retelling the story of the disaster.

https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/#irony
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WD Forte
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
We could easily slip down a conspiracy rabbit hole here
but I don't care either way.

If you want to build airships, easily made Hydrogen is well worth a fresh look IMO.
They wont be able to compete with bulk carriers on cost/ton but
there's probably a niche for them
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:34 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
WD Forte wrote:
there's probably a niche for them


I’d say it’s cruises.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:37 - 22 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
A little off topic but I was really surprised to find out where we get helium from. It's produced by the radioactive decay of uranium and thorium and collects in gas pockets in the Earth.

While helium is literally the second most abundant element in existence, the vast majority of it is in space and contained in stars and gas clouds. Due to it being the second lightest element, it readily leaves the atmosphere (due to how high it rises - getting away from the influence of the Earth's magnetic field and gets carried off by strong solar winds from solar flares) along with hydrogen but lucky for us that the vast majority of hydrogen on Earth is bonded to oxygen in the form of water and is bound here.

When you realise how rare and scarce helium is and how that once it's gone: it's fucking gone - it's crazy that as a species we waste it with fucking party balloons and making our voices squeaky.


There's a Helium safe store in the states.

I saw a skit about it on utube during the Rona Lockdowns.
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