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Is political views over riding law acceptable?

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 14 Jan 2022    Post subject: Is political views over riding law acceptable? Reply with quote

We have had the Colston statue debacle where the defendants were found not guilty of criminal damage because the jury agreed with their political views and not because they didn't do it.

Now we have the same thing with XR and their demonstrations in London.

Extinction Rebellion: Jury clears protesters who climbed on train roof.
Two climate change activists who sat on the roof of a rush-hour train in east London have been cleared of obstructing a carriage on the railway.
Speaking outside Inner London Crown Court, Ms Parfitt said: "It's wonderful that the jury saw the bigger picture".


And there's the rub. They weren't there to look at the bigger picture but to decide on the obstruction charges.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59996870

It wouldn't surprise me that there are more issues in the future where this happens and while I can understand people having strong feelings on certain agenda to me it's one hell of a dangerous road to go down.

The Colston statue, ok, it would have come down anyway so most people aren't so bothered except for setting a precident. The train disruption, I'm not so sure about it's popularity but get the right jurors in (correct me if I'm wrong but can the defense reject jurors?) and they got away with it.

At some time, if it becomes acceptable to decide the result of a trial on your own views and not the facts, we will have something happen that gets a large group of people upset because they don't like the result. Someone gets off for say homophobic abuse because the jury is full of religious types who don't like gays. Surely if we accept that people can ignore the law in one case, we don't have to right to get on our soapbox when others do the same resulting in something we don't like?

To me it makes a mockery of the judicial proceedure and shows certain people believe themselves to be above the law.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 02:11 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speeding, wheelying, burnouts - none of these will get you a jury.

If you ran over a paedo with a Goldwing, you'd probably get found not guilty by a jury if your own family had been involved in the allegations.

If they were directed by the judge to find you guilty, and they agreed then the sentence would probably be minimal especially if you'd confessed and turned yourself in immediately.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:

If they were directed by the judge to find you guilty


Judges cannot direct juries to find defendants guilty. it would defeat the object of having a jury in the first place.

Judges can direct juries to find them not guilt based on a point of law.

In addition juries cannot set precedent. If a jury finds defendants not guilty even when they admit doing whatever it is they've done it it's because they feel the justification they gave for that action was acceptable.

An example is 'self-defence'. There ws a judge who recently decided that temporarily blocking a road is considered 'legitimate protest'.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mindset is so twisted that guilty = martyrdom, not guilty = vindication. Win win! Sad
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Hong Kong Phooey wrote:

If they were directed by the judge to find you guilty


Judges cannot direct juries to find defendants guilty. it would defeat the object of having a jury in the first place.

Judges can direct juries to find them not guilt based on a point of law.

In addition juries cannot set precedent. If a jury finds defendants not guilty even when they admit doing whatever it is they've done it it's because they feel the justification they gave for that action was acceptable.

An example is 'self-defence'. There ws a judge who recently decided that temporarily blocking a road is considered 'legitimate protest'.


I'm quite happy to accept blocking a road being a legitimate right of protest, but then it must apply equally to all. So when Tommy Robinson or similar decides to block a road that also needs to be "legitimate protest".
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

These systems just don't work.

The rule of law, separation and balance of powers, conventions, etc. are all just constructed constitutional fictions that sought to legitimise the status quo and defend it from certain, continental, new ideas, particularly in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. It's important to not take them too seriously. Even in those days, the system didn't work, even though the semantic intellectual groundwork was painstakingly laid out by people who, as now, were motivated by a desire for honours and awards. "Bleak House".

I expect the people will call for more and more modernisation, and reforms, in the coming few years. Particularly after Charles is crowned, and he tries to interfere in the running of the country, and tries to treat it like the Duchy of Cornwall. More people will see the light.

Leaving the law completely out of the question, as it's too tied up with abstract ideals, let's just suppose that the majority of people say it's bad for XR or Tommy Robinson to block a road, in protest at something, but at the same time it's fine to block a road in protest against, say, fox hunting. Isn't it easier to deal with this by running a system that takes a snapshot of societal norms, then applies a value to an individual and judges their action accordingly? It's an excellent case for social credits. All sorts of red herrings and abstract ideals can be left out of the picture. Then you've got an efficient and streamlined way of coordinating police action to clear a road if necessary, or leave it alone if not.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erm. The convention is that the monarch doesn't get involved in politics....
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly... It's a convention that the monarchy doesn't involve itself in politics. Reality: black spider memos (and, I'm sure, a lot more we don't know about).
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Exactly... It's a convention that the monarchy doesn't involve itself in politics. Reality: black spider memos (and, I'm sure, a lot more we don't know about).


I suggest you go to your doctor and explain that you're schizo.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:

I suggest you go to your doctor and explain that you're schizo.


Are you serious?

I'm suggesting constitutional reform, and refer to the black spider memos to prove my case. And you diagnose mental illness... "Physician" heal thyself...
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only the monarch is apolitical. Until such time as Charles is monarch he's free to say whatever he likes.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

This statue business has made some people uneasy.

I expect there will be lots of situations where people feel uneasy, in the future, once he is king. I expect things like this, multiplied 1000x fold:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/28/queen-secretly-lobbied-scottish-ministers-climate-law-exemption

I'm not a doom-and-gloom merchant. This will all help to deteriorate such rotten old structures and introduce something newer and much more useful.

The reality is, these ideals, such as the rule of law, cannot do what people expect them to do without huge resources they've never had, and without impeding normal relations and dealings with people. For example, justice is blind, but the justice system cannot provide justice for all. Another example, people have rights, and you can say what you like but if you repeatedly insult people's religious or political beliefs, the state cannot protect your "rights" if too many people want to fight you. The police can just about keep order, that's all. It's time we admit that and ditch outdated ideas.

The people best adept at exploiting weaknesses in this defunct, archaic and dysfunctional system tend to place themselves in positions of advantage, and have a deep, vested interest in keeping the status quo exactly how it is. Tony Blair or Boris Johnson aren't going to support any kind of overhaul, are they. No, the people themselves will demand it. Especially when it's proved that behaviour can be managed in different ways, without the inconsistencies and contradictions that belief in the "justice system" and a dysfunctional constitutional and administrative system carries with it.

For example, look at this (this could be just the start - points on this could be easily expanded to other things):
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-pilot-to-help-people-eat-better-and-exercise-more

And this framework:

https://www.finalyse.com/blog/behavioral-scorecard-with-machine-learning-components
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
These systems just don't work.

The rule of law, separation and balance of powers, conventions, etc. are all just constructed constitutional fictions that sought to legitimise the status quo and defend it from certain, continental, new ideas...


They work well enough and I do hope you're not advocating for something... French Shocked
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

They've appeared to work but they really haven't worked in the way it's commonly thought. Relative political stability has helped sustain land and asset prices, which is good. However, the claimed ideals behind the status quo don't work, and there will be example after example of people not being happy that their innate sense of fair play isn't served in actuality. It strikes some people that something is a bit "off". Sooner or later people will figure that every institution we've got is a bit of a Potemkin village that only serves to house toffs (and skilled people who managed to get in close) holding booze-up parties.

Singapore is something they used to talk about, in the run-up to the last general election. I've been there. It's incredible. But I've also been to other countries in that part of the world, which were much less stable. Those countries had much better roads, much better standard of living for much less money than here, etc. But they didn't have the political stability we have here. Plus, there are actual protections here that I don't want to downplay. The chances of being shot on sight by the police or being mistreated through the courts and legal system are absolutely minimal here.

That said, we have completely lost the race with China. They've got: (1) digital yuan; (2) social credits, fully implemented. Proper, full rollout. They were also way ahead with Google, setting the agenda when Google wanted to operate in China. They did that before anyone else did. They have access to every technology we have here, and the main difference is, they form a system with it that works. We are simply playing with old and redundant ideas and bipartisan politics. We've grown fat. We can't move like China. And I'm not mentioning China as a potential threat - just as a more developed country by far, at this point.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't conflate "success" with "good."
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a valid democracy the authority of the law, the government and the police only has legitimacy when consented to by society as a whole: the people. Homosexuality and suicide were once crimes but views changed and then so did the laws. In that context you could view the recent acquittal of the slavery protestors as a victory, an expression of changing views and the start of change. However, I don’t see a huge wave of sympathy for them and I think they just got lucky with the jury membership. The accused were regarded as well-meaning but relatively harmless individuals, and were probably not serial offenders. The problem is they’re not pressing for change in modern society because they can’t stop slavery, it’s already ended. They were just virtue signalling. I’d make that a crime. Who’s with me? We can make this happen! Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:37 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtue signalling is the new term for having a social conscience
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or is it making a gesture which has zero practical value? I’m sure the oppressed of Bristol thank them for it.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Virtue signalling is the new term for having a social conscience


Virtue signalling is pretending to have a social conscience for social status benefit. It's doing good things only when there are people around to see you do them. It's speaking out in outrage when you aren't actually outraged or just plain do the same things yourself.

Example:

Sane: I wouldn't want to marry and have kids with a non-white person. I want my kids to look like me.

Signaller's wife and kids are all white.

Signaller: OMG that's so racist you awful terrible person
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 23:42 - 15 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to take part in this subforum, and I only did it as of about a week ago. I did it for a number of reasons.

First, it gives a misleading impression that people who are into bikes are way further out to the right than mainstream society. This probably happened because it's just a few people involved in this subforum here. It isn't true. I mean, quite genuinely, I am genuinely into bikes, and I'm genuinely not a racist. If you go and chat on Facebook and Reddit, people don't think in terms of skin colour, any more than, for example, synth enthusiasts think about skin colour.

Second, I don't want anyone left behind unnecessarily. Just as an example: bus lanes. They popped up in lots of towns and cities recently. Some people probably thought, "I don't understand - I was going about my normal life quite normally, then my local council came up with these temporary bus lanes which are now permanent! How do I make sense of this?" There are agreements and climate protocols to which this country is signed up. Those bus lanes were proposed years ago, in each case, in consultation documents and studies locals never even bothered to look at. So don't be one of those people - there is a programme and you can and should benefit by getting involved. Not in bus lanes (I just used them as an example) but in this new society being created. Don't be one of those dicks screaming abuse at an interracial couple while in a gang. This is 2̶0̶2̶1̶. 2022.

Third, that agenda is being manipulated for votes. The working class feels threatened because "unskilled" (I don't agree it's all that unskilled) work is being undercut by immigrant labour, as well as access to social welfare and resources. This is nothing but vote manipulation of the worst kind. A non-white Indian lady in Parliament is trying to send lifeboats full of illegal non-white immigrants back across the Channel. She will face opposition by the judiciary, and every decision she makes (which was just to make her party more palatable to you) will be overturned by the courts. Do we all agree on that? Every major anti-immigration decision will be overturned by the courts. So the problem here is the system, not these bums who've been told to come here, because they've been told they'll be given a house(!), car(!), phone(!) and a job, and then to call over their wives and families. Because that's what they've been told by criminal, international people traffickers. We've got competing political interests here, all using these people, and your reaction to them, to be next in line for power.

So I just wanted to say all that because, no, it's not all that "sane" to not want mixed-race children. I mean, personally, I haven't really explored my feelings on the matter. However, I prefer my decisions to be based on science, and I have tried to educate myself a little about genetics and DNA. There are many misapprehensions floating around, and I've got a little knowledge about the subject. If it's your kid it will look like you and your partner, no matter where your partner's from.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 16 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

To mangle the age old philosophical question: if a statue is toppled and no one tweets about it did it really fall?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 16 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Virtue signalling is the new term for having a social conscience


Social conscience? What's one of those then?
Take your hypocritical 'society' and...well, you know the drill by now. Got enough lube? Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 16 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

You temporarily unenema'd me for that?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 16 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
You temporarily unenema'd me for that?


You're enemied because I don't want to have to trawl through your playground bickering with you-know-who all the time, but can choose to log in and see if anyone has anything interesting to say. When you pack that in, I'll un-enemy you. He's enemied too.
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