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So is Andy off the hook?

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 16 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's damaged goods now. All of this proves he's not a "safe pair of hands" - if you can't quietly pay of a brass without it spilling out all over the tabloids what hope arranging multi-million arms deals!
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 16 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
They're emotionally immature and kind of stupid while they're still in school. They get stupid ideas. They are still kids, mentally. Legally, they aren't capable of consenting to sex with people who are in a position of care over them, even if they're over 16. That's why a 6th former can't consent to sex with their teacher. .


So it's if they are in school and not just how old they are? A girl in sixth form can't decide on a 30 yo boyfriend but the girl who's left school can!!!???? Obviously I presume you don't mean that but that's what you said. The position of trust is not whats being argued about, that's irrespective of age, just like we expect a doctor not to shag his patients or Stinkers not to emulate the Taffs and have a relationship with one of his sheep. Wink

Bhud wrote:
I could say it just doesn't seem right, but it's not a moral question as such. There is potential to cause harm to someone who's immature when the age gap is that wide. Andy didn't care about that - he saw her just like Savile might have seen a kid in Broadmoor. The human mind is a fickle thing. Sometimes, someone might consent to a powerful man one day, then awaken to the fact that they were abused, years later, when understanding and the cost of what happened to them finally dawns. There is an onus of responsibility to prevent future harm.


Of course it's a moral question. The moral question being what age do we as a society say a person is legally able to indulge in sex for any reason, physical, mental or maturity. The only answer to the above statement if people are too immature at 16 is to raise the legal age of consent as it's impossible to have caveats that cover every level of adolescence. You could try and do what Angry Jock says and have maximum age differences between consenting couples but that would go down like a lead balloon with the public.

You say Andrew saw her like JS saw his victims. Maybe he did but also maybe he saw her as a willing partner at a party he was at and because she was legal age, did the deed.

In the end though he's dodged it. No matter that he is regarded as dirty andy by pretty well the whole population and has bought himself out of a sticky situation, he's got away without a court case, Money talks.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 16 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following the mad Scotsmans rules I'd have been in the nick at 19. Oh and she initiated it. I'd been being patient for 3 months at that point.



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Bhud
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 16 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
So it's if they are in school and not just how old they are? A girl in sixth form can't decide on a 30 yo boyfriend but the girl who's left school can!!!???? Obviously I presume you don't mean that


Um, I kinda do... Laughing
I mean, there are grey areas and then there are rules. Rules are black and white, and set in stone. But the reality is, there's an underlying set of unspoken rules that carry a lot of weight.

Example: normal girl goes to school. Parents go to work and trust that the kid is having a normal experience of being a kid. Their frame of reference is what used to happen in the old days: the coolest kids will have a snog behind the bike shed. The reality of the kid's activities on TikTok nobody really wants to know about, because that's a can of worms. However, they sort of trust that it's all just chit-chat with people roughly the same age as her. Girl mentions a boy one day. Dad reacts and gives guidance. But he isn't really surprised - it was all sort of expected.

Unofficially, it's game on once they go to university. Let's not kid ourselves - university for many is just a rite of passage into adult life. The courses themselves are not often not useful at all. However, all is fair, when at university. The girl at 18 at school is not the same as the girl (still 18) who's just arrived at university. A tutor spots the "talent" early, let's say. Again, this is all based on the parents' understanding of how an ideal life is supposed to work. This is a watershed moment when they're finally willing to accept the adulthood of their daughter. They may even be happy with the situation, if their kid is getting on particularly well with a tenured prof. She's interested in architecture, for example. She's told she's special. She has the university experience and Dr So-and-so extends a long leash ("open relationship"). She plays with the boys, does her drunken party stuff, etc. At 21 she announces her intention to pursue a PhD, and everything is miraculously in place.

All of the above is just a hypothetical story situation but what I would regard as how the unspoken rules are expected to work. If it's a much older man, he has to be significantly higher status than her, and he has to bring a lot to the table. Just "some guy" won't cut it - there will be trouble. That's why I think the age boundaries aren't that useful.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 16 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't particularly agree with you, but I like that you thought about it that much.
Quite deeply!
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 01:38 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamema begum: 15 years old. Innocent needing protection, or terrorist needing deportation? Thinking

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/16B32/production/_105687929_hi052405936-1.jpg
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 10:54 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do wonder why a prostitute living in Australia takes a bloke from England about an incident that happened in England to an American Civil Court, the sort of court where real evidence isn't needed, rich people get shafted for money, a place that is anti-English and anti-Royals about something that allegedly happened over a decade ago?

Seems more like blackmail to me with Andy being outed for being a randy little bugger. Royals have always had their fun, she was legal in this country and most of us given the chance would do the same as Andy. I know that I don't remember everyone that I have had fun with.

Smells wrong to me, plus where are all the other rich blokes like the Clintons and the like who she serviced, or did they pay up so it didn't go anywhere?
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
the mad Scotsman


Is it weird that I actually take this as a compliment? Laughing
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Shamema begum: 15 years old. Innocent needing protection, or terrorist needing deportation? Thinking


Both, there should have been better checks and measures in place to begin with to try and identify the problem or at least to react very quickly to it. In the beginning she was an innocent who needed protection.

However, that changed accordingly with the actions she took while over there. That made her a terrorist or at the very least a radical who should have no place back in the civilised world.

As I keep noting, I am a libertarian and what I said in the second paragraph would be at odds with that. I am a great believer in Restorative Justice (it's why I despise cancel-culture) but in certain cases I just can't see a Restorative path back (terrorists, rapists, paedophiles, murderers, etc).

Monsters are not born: they are created. External influences moved her from being a normal, innocent person to a terrorist at odds with normal people. Just because she was changed and led down a bad path doesn't magically absolve her of the consequences of going down that path.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think she should be let back in the country... and then hung, drawn and quartered as is still the penalty for treason Smile
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Shamema begum: 15 years old. Innocent needing protection, or terrorist needing deportation? Thinking


Both, there should have been better checks and measures in place to begin with to try and identify the problem or at least to react very quickly to it. In the beginning she was an innocent who needed protection.

However, that changed accordingly with the actions she took while over there. That made her a terrorist or at the very least a radical who should have no place back in the civilised world.

As I keep noting, I am a libertarian and what I said in the second paragraph would be at odds with that. I am a great believer in Restorative Justice (it's why I despise cancel-culture) but in certain cases I just can't see a Restorative path back (terrorists, rapists, paedophiles, murderers, etc).

Monsters are not born: they are created. External influences moved her from being a normal, innocent person to a terrorist at odds with normal people. Just because she was changed and led down a bad path doesn't magically absolve her of the consequences of going down that path.


Mentally old enough to support a genocide and take exams that have a huge impact on her future, too young to decide to have sex (even though I think she did since she has had 3? kids). Even better example is Greta Thunburg, she was 1 year younger than this Miss Giuffre when she was doing such minor things as telling the entire planet how they should be living their lives and with some quite precise details too. The media seem to want to have it both ways, Andrew is exploiting her vulnerability, but she is still old enough to micromanage every aspect of his life and that of the planet Laughing
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Mentally old enough to support a genocide and take exams that have a huge impact on her future, too young to decide to have sex (even though I think she did since she has had 3? kids). Even better example is Greta Thunburg, she was 1 year younger than this Miss Giuffre when she was doing such minor things as telling the entire planet how they should be living their lives and with some quite precise details too. The media seem to want to have it both ways, Andrew is exploiting her vulnerability, but she is still old enough to micromanage every aspect of his life and that of the planet Laughing


I think that the way education is done, isn't suitable from top to bottom but that is a discussion for another day. Kids are thrown into making long-term decisions too early in my opinion.

Regarding Greta Thunburg, again I think she is too young and naïve to be trying to tell the world what to do and has been used as a puppet by those around her. She isn't the power-holder in her movement: she is merely the public figure head of it. As a parent, I think the first duty of a parent is to provide their child a childhood. Greta's parents failed that task.

Personally, I think that climate change is the largest threat faced by humanity but in all honesty I think we are already past the point of no-return. As a species, we have extremely poorly managed the resources of our planet and doomed the future of our species. There isn't going to be a WWIII because of Ukraine: but there probably will be in the Great Resource War in the future, a future that might even come within my own lifetime.

What we do as a species is not sustainable. We are looking at all the wrong problems like wokeness, racism, trans-rights. They are all things that are somewhat important and should be discussed and progress made in, but they are weak-sauce problems that are being used to distract us from the real and impending actual problems.

How is the world going to feed 12,000,000,000 people in 2050 when it can barely cope with 7,900,000,000 in 2022? How can the resources of the planet provide 12,000,000,000 people enough jobs, space, resources, etc to give them the life aspirations that they want to have?

Enjoy the time you have now ladies and gentlemen. The clock is ticking down and we will be the last generations to enjoy it as it is now.

WE. ARE. FUCKED.

EDIT: A bit off topic there but fuck it. Embarassed
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. I feel better now! Very Happy

Laughing
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

He should have been thrown in the tower for the train smash of an interview he gave Wotserface Maitlis.
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TbirdX
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Shamema begum: 15 years old. Innocent needing protection, or terrorist needing deportation? Thinking

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/16B32/production/_105687929_hi052405936-1.jpg


Munter that needs a dentist.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Needs a bullet.

But hey, we aren't allowed to say things like that. Islamophobia trumps treason even if it kills Brits.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
He should have been thrown in the tower for the train smash of an interview he gave Wotserface Maitlis.

I've still never even seen it.
*shrug*
Its like Two Girls One Cup, you know AAAAAALLLLLLL about it. But you've never ... you know... watched it . Shifty
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crikey, that grouchy jocko, he's got a bit of the Hamlet about him, innee?
Cool
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 17 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soliloquysing* about all over the place, what a chap Wub




* No, I do not care how it is spelt.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
Its like Two Girls One Cup, you know AAAAAALLLLLLL about it. But you've never ... you know... watched it . Shifty


It wasn't my proudest fap, I can say that much Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
I think that climate change is the largest threat faced by humanity...


I think climate change action is the greatest threat to humanity. The plebs are told to return to the cave and raw meat a flexitarian diet of soy and ground cockroaches while the 1%ers continue their idyllic life of gated communities, chauffeur driven V12 Bentleys and private jets. All paid for out of "green" taxes Evil or Very Mad (basically the plot to Elysium.)
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
I think climate change action is the greatest threat to humanity. The plebs are told to return to the cave and raw meat a flexitarian diet of soy and ground cockroaches while the 1%ers continue their idyllic life of gated communities, chauffeur driven V12 Bentleys and private jets. All paid for out of "green" taxes Evil or Very Mad (basically the plot to Elysium.)


I don't disagree at all. I just wanted to point out the fact that no matter what is done, the climate is already fucked and even if we stop right now 100% across the entirety of society: IT IS STILL FUCKED.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the climate is in peril and the sea is going to rise by a few meters. why has Obama spent a few million dollars on a water front property? Lies all lies.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skudd wrote:
If the climate is in peril and the sea is going to rise by a few meters. why has Obama spent a few million dollars on a water front property? Lies all lies.


The climate activists are complaining about how their grandchildren will suffer from the effects of climate change, even though they can't afford to actually have kids Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 18 Feb 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Skudd wrote:
If the climate is in peril and the sea is going to rise by a few meters. why has Obama spent a few million dollars on a water front property? Lies all lies.


The climate activists are complaining about how their grandchildren will suffer from the effects of climate change, even though they can't afford to actually have kids Laughing


It doesn't stop them having kids though, there's always someone else to pay for them.
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