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Engine gone pop after 10 days, no warranty, where do I stand

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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 21:49 - 25 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
In your emails and letters to the dealer, haven't you already quoted the specific bits of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that outlines your rights and explains how the onus is on them to prove misuse?


Yep. I quoted the exact legislation. So yeah, just bringing a copy of all the emails will give me everything I need right there.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 25 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool.

As well as taking copies of everything with you to court, when filling in the forms applying for it to go to court, don't you have to submit copies of everything you need to quote or show the court?
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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 05:28 - 26 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ag good point. Can't remember honestly it's been so many years since I submitted a claim. Probably over 10 years. But yeah, sounds likely. In the section where you fill out your reasons for the claim I could probably quote the legislation in there. Dealer may buckle at the first hurdle and may not result in a court appearance anyway.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 26 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
TravisBickle wrote:
Ag good point. Can't remember honestly it's been so many years since I submitted a claim. Probably over 10 years. But yeah, sounds likely. In the section where you fill out your reasons for the claim I could probably quote the legislation in there. Dealer may buckle at the first hurdle and may not result in a court appearance anyway.


Good luck mate, seems you've got most things down already. I've been in similar situations with companies before and from my experience the dealer is probably going to be obstinate and hope you bail out at the last minute, then turn up at court and be decided against and pull a surprised Pikachu face.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 26 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
As well as taking copies of everything with you to court, when filling in the forms applying for it to go to court, don't you have to submit copies of everything you need to quote or show the court?

I think so... last time I did something like this you had to prepare a "Witness Statement" setting out your case, which referenced "Exhibit 1", "Exhibit 2" etc etc, which in your case would be the individual original invoice, emails etc. Copies sent to the court and to the opposition X days in advance. I was told that the courts didn't like spending time making allowances for lay people who didn't follow the laid-down procedure so I did spend a lot of time and effort getting my ducks in a row.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 01:37 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
DJP wrote:
They're totally bluffing. What misuse can they prove in 10 days? And how can they prove that it was down to you?

The bottom line is that they can't.


If they are good they can and I can guess the damage just from the description of how the bike was ridden.
It'll either have bent valves from being over revved or it was oil starvation and either are VERY obvious.

Mid size single that burns oil with the throttle pinned for an excessive time, it's gonna go bang. OP hasn't told us what he did for the other days he had the bike and when he last checked the oil, you did check the oil didn't you???
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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 02:14 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
1) Does pinning it at an indicated 80mph (so probably more like 70mph), because the bike is so gutless or there is something inherently wrong with the way its setup (we don't know if it was running lean or if there was a fuelling issue), count as misuse? I would argue no, it's simply riding the motorcycle. It's got a rev limiter, how can it have been over revved?

2) I checked the oil that day. If it's managed to burn that off in a single ride, clearly something wrong with the bike. Is that my fault?

3) Any technical/mechanical jargon they spout, the legal officials are highly unlikely to understand. They may be able to make it sound convincing, but surely they have to take into account that their report is naturally going to be biased?
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 07:35 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
We should make a poll on the outcome of Travis’ bun fight with the dealer.

My personal view is that the bike was thrashed to death. If someone thinks having a rev limiter makes it impossible to kill an engine by revving the nuts off it then it doesn’t speak well of OP’s mechanical sympathy.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 07:46 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
TravisBickle wrote:
1) Does pinning it at an indicated 80mph (so probably more like 70mph), because the bike is so gutless or there is something inherently wrong with the way its setup (we don't know if it was running lean or if there was a fuelling issue), count as misuse? I would argue no, it's simply riding the motorcycle. It's got a rev limiter, how can it have been over revved?


Questions like this posted on a public forum aren't going to work in your favour if the dealer sees it and decides to use it against you. Brings into doubt that you haven't been thrashing the tits off it since you got it...

Quote:
It's got a rev limiter, how can it have been over revved?


Easily - you change down when you're up towards the red. No rev limiter in the world will work against mechanically spinning the engine too fast.

How do you know that one of the 27 previous owners didn't artificially raise the limiter too?
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
TravisBickle wrote:
Any technical/mechanical jargon they spout, the legal officials are highly unlikely to understand. They may be able to make it sound convincing, but surely they have to take into account that their report is naturally going to be biased?

I feel that might be your downfall. If they can spout lots of convincing-sounding technobabble which 'proves' that the damage was your fault, don't you have to do likewise to 'disprove' it? Like, providing a report from a mechanic of your own choosing? Isn't this rather like in big trials where the prosecution and defence have to provide their own 'expert witnesses'and the jury has to decide who to believe?
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DJP
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:
It'll either have bent valves from being over revved or it was oil starvation and either are VERY obvious.


Well, if it has a rev limiter and the OP is an experienced rider (ie didn't pass his test yesterday) then that tends to disprove the over rev argument.

As for oil starvation, if a Japanese engine uses that much in 10 days then there was clearly something wrong with it to start with.

The onus in these cases lies with the dealer. Unless they can prove wilful misuse this is on them.

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
How do you know that one of the 27 previous owners didn't artificially raise the limiter too?


Which means that it came with the fault, which makes it the dealers problem.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
a surprised Pikachu face.


Yeah, got me again. Don't bother to explain, I'm too old to care.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
a surprised Terry Thomas face.


Yeah, got me again. Don't bother to explain, I'm too old to care.


FIFY.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
DJP wrote:
Well, if it has a rev limiter and the OP is an experienced rider (ie didn't pass his test yesterday) then that tends to disprove the over rev argument.


No it doesn't.

DJP wrote:
As for oil starvation, if a Japanese engine uses that much in 10 days then there was clearly something wrong with it to start with.


No. Thats the thing about singles, they tend to use oil. And further thats the things about people on the internet, they assume the bike wasn't thrashed for the last 10 days and run out of oil.

DJP wrote:
The onus in these cases lies with the dealer. Unless they can prove wilful misuse this is on them.


Yes it does lie with them but they have a record of the mileage it was sold at and all the damage I've suggested is pretty obvious

TravisBickle wrote:
1) Does pinning it at an indicated 80mph (so probably more like 70mph), because the bike is so gutless or there is something inherently wrong with the way its setup (we don't know if it was running lean or if there was a fuelling issue), count as misuse? I would argue no, it's simply riding the motorcycle. It's got a rev limiter, how can it have been over revved?


It's a 400cc 40bhp single, of course it's gutless. The engine is designed for low down grunt to pull you out of ditches and up hills so yes pinning it at 80mph is abuse, it's not what it's designed to do.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
TravisBickle wrote:
2) I checked the oil that day.


How did you check it?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 27 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Have you got a copy of the ad from Auto Trader yet?
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 28 Apr 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
From an outsider perspective, here are some thoughts.

1. Probably best to take Ste's advice from early in this thread; when you go to court, argue that the bike you purchased was not fit for its purpose. The trader will likely argue that you are trying to get them to warrant a machine that was sold without warranty. If you take the position that they sold you a bike that was unfit to ride, you may have more success.

2. Keep your emotions in check. The judge will apply logic in rendering a decision in this matter. The more you can logically present your argument in accordance with fact and written law, the better your probability of prevailing. If anybody gets emotional and out of control, let it be the other guy.

3. As much as you would like to get your money back and never see this trader again, you might be able to reach a compromise. The trader might agree to give you full credit of your purchase price on another motorcycle (new or used) with warranty. If you tell this to the judge, it might work in your favor, and perhaps a solution can be reached that is palatable to both parties.

Just some ideas. Good luck to you.
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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 03 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
redeem ouzzer wrote:
My personal view is that the bike was thrashed to death. If someone thinks having a rev limiter makes it impossible to kill an engine by revving the nuts off it then it doesn’t speak well of OP’s mechanical sympathy.


That's your prerogative. I've already said this isn't the case. Only two occasions I rode it 'flat out' (i.e. full throttle) were:

From M25 J6 (Godstone) to M26 J2A (Wrotham Heath) - 17 miles

And then again 8 days later:

From M20 J7 (Detling) to M26 J2A (Wrotham Heath) - 9 miles

The rest of the time was poodling round town / country lanes. Oil and water was checked several times in this 8 day period including the day of failure.



xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
Questions like this posted on a public forum aren't going to work in your favour if the dealer sees it and decides to use it against you. Brings into doubt that you haven't been thrashing the tits off it since you got it...


You only say this because of your perceptions of big single cylinder bikes. There's nothing in the manual that states you're not allowed to ride the bike at full throttle for more than 17 miles. You wouldn't be saying this if we were talking about a 50cc or 125cc scooter.



xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
Easily - you change down when you're up towards the red. No rev limiter in the world will work against mechanically spinning the engine too fast.


I've already stated this sin't the case. I don't even know why anyone would do this anyway unless they were deliberately trying to kill the engine.



xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
How do you know that one of the 27 previous owners didn't artificially raise the limiter too?


Exactly. How am I supposed to know? Given the bike doesn't even have a rev gauge. It's a used bike. I have put my faith in the dealer not to sell me a lemon. Unfortunately, unknowingly to either party, they have sold me a lemon. It's now on them to cough up. This is exactly why dealers make such high markups on used vehicles to account for any come-backs like list so they're still in profit on the other 99 vehicles they sold out of 100. Unfortunately in this care the trader appears to want to be able to have their cake and eat it.



sickpup wrote:
No. Thats the thing about singles, they tend to use oil. And further thats the things about people on the internet, they assume the bike wasn't thrashed for the last 10 days and run out of oil.


To go from full to empty in 138 miles? Really?



sickpup wrote:
It's a 400cc 40bhp single, of course it's gutless. The engine is designed for low down grunt to pull you out of ditches and up hills so yes pinning it at 80mph is abuse, it's not what it's designed to do.


Refer to above. Is there anything saying that you can't ride a 400cc single at full throttle for 17 miles and then 9 miles 8 days later?



Ste wrote:
Have you got a copy of the ad from Auto Trader yet?


No, do you think I should have this with me when I go to court?



jeffyjeff wrote:
3. As much as you would like to get your money back and never see this trader again, you might be able to reach a compromise. The trader might agree to give you full credit of your purchase price on another motorcycle (new or used) with warranty. If you tell this to the judge, it might work in your favor, and perhaps a solution can be reached that is palatable to both parties.


The idea that I coudl take another £3,500 bike off them and immediately sell it to recoup most of the value is appealing... However they're not even willing to pay for the damage and give the bike back, they've already made that clear. All they've offered is to fix it for me and give me the bill. They're never going to give me a £3,500 bike. However, it might look good on paper to the courts if I at least offer this as a potential resolution. Thanks!
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 03 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
Xx"]Questions like this posted on a public forum aren't going to work in your favour if the dealer sees it and decides to use it against you. Brings into doubt that you haven't been thrashing the tits off it since you got it...


Quote:
You only say this because of your perceptions of big single cylinder bikes. There's nothing in the manual that states you're not allowed to ride the bike at full throttle for more than 17 miles. You wouldn't be saying this if we were talking about a 50cc or 125cc scooter.


No I said that because while you're making a case for you, they will be making a case for them. If they happen to stumble across this thread, it can and will be used against you if they can call doubt on you not fucking up the bike yourself. Just trying to point that out....


Quote:
don't even know why anyone would do this anyway unless they were deliberately trying to kill the engine.


No-one would on purpose, but this isn't like you have a rev counter and have had the bike long enough that you know what the engine sounds like nearing the top when on and off throttle, so it's easy to say "I didn't do it" when it's still a possibility that matches the symptoms.

But hey, if only someone had said buying a bike with a brazillion previous owners wasn't a great idea huh?
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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 03 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
But hey, if only someone had said buying a bike with a brazillion previous owners wasn't a great idea huh?


Totally!

I never intended this to be a daily commuter and I never expected it to be a reliable workhorse for years and years, I did expect it to last more than 8 days though! If I'm honest I kinda thought if it lasts a year I'll have had my money's worth out of it.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 03 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
The last thing I saw about a DRZ was Yammie Noob's sidekick doing some really stoopid things with the sprockets to the point where it probably only managed 70mph on the highway (pinning it probably) and, daft as the whole video was, I don't recall anything blowing up. TBF not a great example as they regularly cite it as an "unlucky" bike Neutral
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P.
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 04 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
17 miles, flat out, on a DRZ Laughing Dang son.

Why didn't you use and abuse the A25, would have been far nicer.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 04 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
17 miles, flat out, on a DRZ Laughing Dang son.

Why didn't you use and abuse the A25, would have been far nicer.


You're having flashbacks about Smiler and the GasGas again aren't you.
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TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 11:20 - 04 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paddy. wrote:
17 miles, flat out, on a DRZ Laughing Dang son.

Why didn't you use and abuse the A25, would have been far nicer.


Just wanted to get home as quickly as possible to be honest. Was damp and miserable as I recall. But yeah, admittedly the A25 would have been more appropriate for the bike and probably not a great deal longer time-wise.
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Old Thread Alert!

There is a gap of 265 days between these two posts...

TravisBickle
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 24 Jan 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Last edited by TravisBickle on 20:18 - 24 Jan 2023; edited 1 time in total
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 1 year, 90 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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