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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Chinese Litre Bikes Reply with quote

Knowing BCF this will probably just be a target for scorn and ridicule but the company that makes my little 125cc seems to be planning on bringing out a 3 cylinder litre bike:

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2021/july/zontes-triples-to-come-in-650cc-and-1000cc-forms

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/-/media/bikesocial/2021-july-images/zontes-triples/zontes-triple-4.ashx?h=0&w=0&la=en&hash=05CA8E8CFA068DEB2CF77371EECAFB6D4ECF34EE

In defence of my little 125cc I've had it since November 2020 and I've put almost 6,000 miles on it. It's been used through two winters and apart from the niggles at the start with the oxygen sensor it's been really good and really reliable. I have not treated it kindly and during the winters I probably didn't wash it as often as I should have but it's still a good looking little bike. The front brake pulls nice, it has a nice and light clutch and goes through the gears without issue.

TL;DR - I am pleased with the quality and reliability of my little chink bike.

So that brings me on to the next point: are we going to see a wave of Chinese bikes in all the engine size classes? CFMoto already compete with race bikes and they offer a 4 year parts and labour warranty on their bikes when Honda only provide 2 years (then again Honda have more dealers so easier to get anything done).
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

That styling is a bit ... ermmmm .... "I found this cool looking bobber - let's modernise it and make it look like half of these new electric motorcycles, and put it into production"

Be interesting to see what the reviews are like, and if it breaks the 100hp mark.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are they going to call it a Stleet Tliple?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
So are they going to call it a Stleet Tliple?



That racist but oh so accurate....
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
That styling is a bit ... ermmmm .... "I found this cool looking bobber - let's modernise it and make it look like half of these new electric motorcycles, and put it into production"

Be interesting to see what the reviews are like, and if it breaks the 100hp mark.


If I am honest I find the styling to be kinda ugly too. Just think it's interesting to see some movement away from only doing 125 - 400cc engines only.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks alright to me. Would be interesting to read any more information. Not saying I'd trust it right off the bat, though. The Chinese bike I really want is the RPS Hawk 250, but they don't sell it here. Now THAT is a proper pile of junk, right out of the box, but it's an off-road toy and can be improved somewhat.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I don't see it selling well and I'll be surprised if they try.

Chinese 125s are a known quantity. They're copies of old Japanese designs, made cheaply and to a variable standard of quality. The UK is a minor market - they only sell at all here because it's a way for teenagers to afford something new for their first bike, which is why you get an old design with modern styling. The main markets are developing countries where price is more important, and the bikes are sold much cheaper there, albeit with even less suggestion of a warranty.

I would not be queueing up to hand over a serious amount of money for their early experiments in the litre bike world. They don't have a great reputation for metallurgy, and that matters a lot more to me when the frame is having to handle 100hp+ and high speeds.

So they're looking to get sales from a shrinking pool of people who buy litre bikes. Out of those people, they need ones who are spending something in the range of 10 grand. Then they need those people to spend their 10 grand on a new Zontes instead of a 2-3 year old Japanese or European bike.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Chinese 125s are a known quantity. They're copies of old Japanese designs, made cheaply and to a variable standard of quality.


While I don't disagree with you, just pointing out my cheap Zontes 125 was a way better build quality than this guys more expensive, Japanese Honda CBF125. I also didn't get as much hassle having my warranty repairs done by the Zontes dealer than this guy had from the Honda dealer Laughing

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=3763905

I also note that the Workshop area of this forum gets filled with just as many fucked Jap bikes as it does fucked Chink bikes Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always been a bit suspicious of single-sided swing arms but I'm sure the likes of Ducati know what they're doing. Random Chinese companies? Not so much...
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:36 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Robby wrote:
Chinese 125s are a known quantity. They're copies of old Japanese designs, made cheaply and to a variable standard of quality.


While I don't disagree with you, just pointing out my cheap Zontes 125 was a way better build quality than this guys more expensive, Japanese Honda CBF125. I also didn't get as much hassle having my warranty repairs done by the Zontes dealer than this guy had from the Honda dealer Laughing

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=3763905

I also note that the Workshop area of this forum gets filled with just as many fucked Jap bikes as it does fucked Chink bikes Laughing


That was a dodgy dealer selling an old bike with a new reg and as soon as Honda got involved it was sorted.

Can you see a Chinese manufacturer bailing out a purchaser cause the
Importer says no?
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doggone
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:


If I am honest I find the styling to be kinda ugly too. Just think it's interesting to see some movement away from only doing 125 - 400cc engines only.

It is at least a bit different, I had a quick walk through a dealers today and was struck how they all seem to be trying too hard with what they think is a futuristic hyper aggressive pointy look.
They all seemed much the same to a casual (and not that interested) observer.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:

It is at least a bit different, I had a quick walk through a dealers today and was struck how they all seem to be trying too hard with what they think is a futuristic hyper aggressive pointy look.
They all seemed much the same to a casual (and not that interested) observer.


It'll never pass Euro and therefore UK rules because nothing behind the back wheel.

Plus that seat assumes really snug with your passenger. Thats not a good idea if you've ever riden with Ste on the bitch seat.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're also not showing mirrors, signals, or other bits. If it does come anywhere near here (which is unlikely as you say due to emissions), they'll end up sticking the plate on a swingarm bracket which puts it behind the wheel.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the old chicken and egg scenario. Want to sell expensive bikes? better have a decent dealership and there is no sign of the Chinese ever bothering with that route.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect a Chinese litre will be like a US gallon, ie, inferior.

Laughing

Still, every time any manufacturing is outsourced to China they learn something and then sell it back. If they ever decide quality control is a thing they’ll clean up.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 16 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese bikes ARE inferior.

Here is the original speedo I removed from a 440cc+, 40 year old Japanese bike, a couple of days ago. So add 50-odd miles to the reading. That's 57K miles on a small, air-cooled twin which produces significantly more power than a larger-capacity 2022 Enfield that's trying to look just as old.

Today, I took this very same bike for a good thrash. I mean, a 90+mph in several places, country roads, thrash, where I was wondering when it would blow up (it didn't).

https://i.ibb.co/ZVc5jWV/original-speedo-small.png

The reputation of Japanese bikes is earned, as is that of Chinese bikes. No matter what anyone on Youtube says.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 08:33 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
That was a dodgy dealer selling an old bike with a new reg and as soon as Honda got involved it was sorted.

Can you see a Chinese manufacturer bailing out a purchaser cause the
Importer says no?


Still a Honda main dealer selling a new Honda that was shagged from factory Laughing the thread was actually an interesting read and an absolute saga Laughing

Regarding a Chink manufacturer bailing out an importer? Not a fucking chance. Can't defend against the indefensible Laughing

doggone wrote:
They all seemed much the same to a casual (and not that interested) observer.


You just described the entire population of the UK who isn't a biker or someone who wants to be a biker Laughing
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese bikes do seem to be getting better; while I was having my MOT done the other day, the shop had a range of small-capacity Chinese bikes in which I was looking at to kill time. The fit and finish was much improved over what I remember them to be like. Traditionally the quality control issues stemmed from a reliance on human intervention and skill to ensure everything was excellent, this is where a relatively unskilled workforce would come unstuck. But with modern tech, it's much easier to ensure close tolerances from the outset. Yes, there are still discrepancies with material quality, but I suspect the gap between Chinese and Japanese bikes will continue to slowly close (probably won't ever close completely I suspect).

The problem is people quite often compare old(er) Japanese bikes (inevitably as they're likely to have racked up some miles) to new Chinese bikes, but I'm not sure Japanese bikes are as well made as they were (at least, the non-Japan built ones anyway). What would be really interesting would be for some real long term data (multiple years) of tough use, e.g. all year round commuting, of say a CB125F and a Chinese equivalent and see how they compare.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
Chinese bikes do seem to be getting better; while I was having my MOT done the other day, the shop had a range of small-capacity Chinese bikes in which I was looking at to kill time. The fit and finish was much improved over what I remember them to be like. Traditionally the quality control issues stemmed from a reliance on human intervention and skill to ensure everything was excellent, this is where a relatively unskilled workforce would come unstuck. But with modern tech, it's much easier to ensure close tolerances from the outset. Yes, there are still discrepancies with material quality, but I suspect the gap between Chinese and Japanese bikes will continue to slowly close (probably won't ever close completely I suspect).

The problem is people quite often compare old(er) Japanese bikes (inevitably as they're likely to have racked up some miles) to new Chinese bikes, but I'm not sure Japanese bikes are as well made as they were (at least, the non-Japan built ones anyway). What would be really interesting would be for some real long term data (multiple years) of tough use, e.g. all year round commuting, of say a CB125F and a Chinese equivalent and see how they compare.


I can only comment on what I have experienced first-hand and I have seen around and sat on brand a new Honda CB125R, MSX125 and Super Cub 125. In all honesty I have to say my Zontes is equal to the CB125R in quality and probably better than the MSX125. Sorry Honda boys and Chink haters but it's the truth in my observed opinion. I went with my ex to help her choose a bike after she did her CBT. She got the Super Cub 125 and I straight up that little thing is a gem.

Then again, the argument that quality varies wildly between Chinese manufacturers ... I think it's true. I have personally rode past two (and helped one) broken down Lexmoto bikes.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see anywhere to put my sandwiches.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Personally, I don't see it selling well and I'll be surprised if they try...

I would not be queueing up to hand over a serious amount of money for their early experiments in the litre bike world. They don't have a great reputation for metallurgy, and that matters a lot more to me when the frame is having to handle 100hp+ and high speeds.



This is my concern.. not so much fit and finish but this. My admittedly small experience with Chinese was that the quality of EVERTHING was inferior from seal materials to chromework and plastics. when the Japanese took over from Brit bikes the opposite was true as I understand it.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only money in old Japanese bikes is Steptoe's money, i.e. keep a lot of old junk in your garden for decades, and sell it piece by piece as you get old. The days of doing that are numbered, as the world moves on to electric. There will always be a few diehard enthusiasts but it won't be what it was. The reason I'm mentioning this is because these Chinese litre bikes are appearing on the scene just as the big boys are bowing out. There is no chance of them being on the same level of quality in engineering and design (and manufacturing) as, say, a Z900, because no Chinese corporation has the sort of engineering and design expertise and resources of the likes of Yamaha and Kawasaki.

That's not the only issue. These bikes (Chinese ones) are current, and as they're new, there's money to be made from them, by just about everyone. Here on this forum, I assume most of us are just enthusiasts and hobbyists. We enjoy riding, and sometimes working on, or just admiring, bikes. Our very existence is utterly worthless and ridiculous to the following groups of people as a whole:

1) Young people
2) Mechanics
3) Bike and gear manufacturers
4) Youtube shills
5) Chinese

etc.

You get the picture. If you're a hobbyist you're seen as a dilettante and a jerk. The only time we have any value to these people is when we die and have an estate sale of our tools. The young are ambitious and want to make a career. Chinese bikes are a way to do this. Mechanics (and engineers, welders and all sorts of skilled tradespeople) want to make a living from their skills and see us as beer bellies with a wallet attached - they don't even like us (we're the jacks of all trades and masters of none). Chinese bikes help them out by facilitating the movement of money from us to them. Bike and gear manufacturers want to sell something and profit. Chinese bikes again. Youtube narcissists want to be current and have people send them free stuff, or just get views. Chinese bikes once more. Chinese... enough said.

That's why Japanese bikes... All the benefit is for the end user, at this point. Service them yourself. Get any style of bike you like. Low cost, high utility. No hangers-on like customisers, painters, "lifestyle" people, etc. However, I would still like an RPS Hawk 250 to mess about with.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 17 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Chinese... enough said


https://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/aw59NK1/akmwPDDk_700w_0.jpg
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slowasyoulike
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 21 Sep 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
I also note that the Workshop area of this forum gets filled with just as many fucked Jap bikes as it does fucked Chink bikes Laughing


It does, but the Chinese ones have usually still to see their first MOT...
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 21 Sep 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowasyoulike wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
I also note that the Workshop area of this forum gets filled with just as many fucked Jap bikes as it does fucked Chink bikes Laughing


It does, but the Chinese ones have usually still to see their first MOT...


They barely make it past PDI half the time.
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