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Street Harassment - how is enforcement possible?

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Street Harassment - how is enforcement possible? Reply with quote

Street harassment law being blocked, adviser Nimco Ali says

OK, she says it's being blocked but what she is asking for, how is it enforcable.

Ms Ali, who was appointed by Home Secretary Priti Patel in 2020, is pushing for street harassment - such as wolf-whistling, catcalling, staring persistently or telling a stranger to smile - to be made a crime, with on-the-spot fines for offenders.

Jesus,

Staring persistently - who decides what is persistently and is he even looking at you?

Wolf whistles and cat calls - OK, if a copper is there but if not, who's word is taken. What proof is needed.

Telling a stranger to smile - WTF. Does anyone actually walk up to a strange woman (or man) and tell her to smile.

Obviously I shall have to wear suglasses when staring persistently at a female in the future. Actually, better not stare at wifie either, she'll dob me in for anything. Laughing

Seriously, is this wanted, needed or even enforcable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61511890
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical stupid bint who'll be sobbing "Where have all the good men gone?" in some Guardian opinion piece in a few years. You fucked them off, reap what you sow, etc.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the spot fines for telling someone to smile? Shocked

A bit of looking on Google and it turns out that the person (Nimco Ali) coming up with those ideas was asked “Is calling a gay person a ‘bum boy’ homophobic?” and her to answer to that is “It depends on the context it’s being said”.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/12/10/nimco-ali-owen-jones-bum-boy-homophobic-video-tory/
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
On the spot fines for telling someone to smile? Shocked

A bit of looking on Google and it turns out that the person (Nimco Ali) coming up with those ideas was asked “Is calling a gay person a ‘bum boy’ homophobic?” and her to answer to that is “It depends on the context it’s being said”.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/12/10/nimco-ali-owen-jones-bum-boy-homophobic-video-tory/


Shocked

The homosexuals on ship were always called 'bum chums'. Laughing

Of course PC didn't exist then.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

All a bit daft if you ask me. Ok, harassment does happen and it isn't pleasant - I wouldn't want my mum, wife, sisters or daughter to be leered at or told to smile by a letch. However, a swift 'fuck off' may be more effective than dialling 999.

I bet people avoid this lady at parties...
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


Of course PC didn't exist then.


Ah, the good ol' days.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 17:38 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

They (extreme feminists) are a minority, but a really powerful one, politically. Almost already they have the power to get a man nicked, on a whim. Therefore, the police will do their bidding and win easy brownie points with their bosses, who will, in turn, win brownie points with government officials and politicians.

I have noticed a couple of cases recently in the papers, where some guy has been charged with straightforward harassment. Obviously, it's the sort of guy who 1) was a bit too stupid to stop being a dick; and 2) couldn't cough up a few grand for a decent brief, and 3) without the wherewithal to appeal and file a complaint (harassment has to be a repeat thing - a point a competent lawyer could easily argue). In one case, a guy was walking in a supermarket and a woman felt uncomfortable, so she went to security guards. Fine. However, it was a public place, and the police essentially took up criminal procedures against a guy being a creep in a public place, where he posed no actual threat. He was just staring. Autism? Mental health episode? Nobody cared to look into that because he didn't have 1) legal representation; 2) the influence of a political lobby behind him. In another case, a guy on a train was being a dick and refused to get up to make way for a female passenger to leave, and kept staring at her. Others intervened on her behalf, and (again) it was a public place and he posed no actual threat - he was just being unpleasant. If these ridiculous proposals are brought into effect, I expect that "street harassment" charges will be brought against easy pickings: low IQ men, men known to the police, men who can't afford professional legal representation in court, men who don't have the good sense to be interviewed with a lawyer present, emotional men, men with a grievance who talk too much, men who are vulnerable due to mental health difficulties, isolated men with no influential friends, etc.

The proposals are deeply flawed. If implemented, there would be a series of injustices against "easy pickings" until the laws are finally overturned by case law at appeal.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second example was a bit beyond 'being a bit of a dick' in my not so humble opinion.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i can be charged for staring, then women should be be charged for dressing like whores.
sharia patrols should keep them in line.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 20 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet the police let gangs stab people to death and come out of prison in a few months. Priorities.

Would you rather be stared at or brutally stabbed to death? The latter according to the UK feds.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:49 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

A classic example of Repressive Tolerance.

Such proposals would not apply to women. I doubt it'd apply to queers touching up kids either Sad
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problems of enforcement notwithstanding, have any of you given any thought to how wearying it is to be subjected to comments from men, ranging from "Cheer up Love." to the most graphic sexual suggestion?

Have you considered how tiresome it is having to ignore or respond/object to the men who do this?

Do any of you (old) boys receive unwanted comments about your appearance or demeanor from strangers when you're out and about. I'm not talking about facetious comments about you, your bike/car/gear, but comments made directly because of your gender by someone who either hates your sex or want to own it.

What about those of you who are fathers of girls? Are you happy for a middle-aged male driver to slow down his car to tell your 19 year old daughter that he "bets her p*ssy tastes good" as she walks to college? Yeah, well this happened and she went to the police - it was not taken seriously. No action.

Would you tolerate your wife to going through that? You'd find the guy and lamp him if you could. Wouldn't you?

It really is not acceptable, it's not banter, it's not a compliment, it's not harmless.

It's men expressing deeply held prejudice and using verbal violence. It should not be tolerated and should be treated as hate crime, criminally punishable.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pissed off with political correctness and every group from Catholics to gay footballers seems to have to highlight it and claim discrimination.

If someone was ripping the shit out of a working class Scotsman like me it would be taken as fun. As I'm a bampot.

I've had two different women care for my disabled son. They both went into mother mode with him. He has complex needs and probably scares men, Is it bad to say that a women should actually look after the children they've brought in to the world?

A women's place is in the kitchen, that's why they've got small feet. They can get closer to the cooker....I'm joking as anything else may cause offence.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
It should not be tolerated and should be treated as hate crime, criminally punishable.


Define "hate"
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
The problems of enforcement notwithstanding, have any of you given any thought to how wearying it is to be subjected to comments from men, ranging from "Cheer up Love." to the most graphic sexual suggestion?


Frankly, I have never and will never given a compliment to a random woman I don't know. It's already fraught with risk, depending on who you are.

I am not convinced that there should be a law to prevent women being wearied by having someone say something in their presence, whether complimentary and innocuous, or outright creepy. There is nobody making an "unintended consequences" argument. Rather, it seems to be, "we know there will be miscarriages of justice and unintended consequences, but, frankly my dearies, we don't give a damn".

This concerns me because the thing I like best in my life is being left alone, but this seems to be becoming an increasingly remote possibility.

It's like birds in a bird bath. There is one source of water and they can take turns if they want a peaceful life. But politics will happen, and they will fight.

Now, I don't know you from Adam. There are others here who may know you. But it seems apparent you perceive a massive political kinship with a group called "all other women". This group is probably more important than your friends.

Let's face it, you are not going to complain if George Clooney gives you a compliment or even the most crude sexual suggestion. You're going to complain about men lower than you in social/political standing. It's those you want to throw in the slammer. This worries me. Am I ethnic, do I live in a working class area, etc. You might be interested in bikes and a generally nice person, but your political tribe is quite threatening at this point.

Sarah Everard was killed by a serving police officer. He did not harass her on the street. He was cold and calculating. Result: protests and more political power for your tribe. Consequence: some mentally ill person, some Pakistani, some ugly guy, some socially awkward guy, some developmentally disordered guy, will get thrown in the clink for having committed the crime of not moving out of the way fast enough for some entitled unemployed woman in a supermarket aisle. This doesn't help you or anyone at all.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud, you appear to have missed my point and cast me as some sort of Millie Tant.

Are you saying the instance I gave of a middle-aged man making an obscene comment to a 19 year old girl would be different if he was goodlooking? WTF?

It doesn't make me or any female part of a tribe(!) just because I object to men making unsolicited comments to women they don't know. I

I ask again, consider the guy in the car, if he said that to your Mum, would you tell her to just get over herself?

Incidentally your George Clooney remark is fatuous. I've even heard that as an excuse when a guy was called out for inappropriate remarks, "You wouldn't mind if you fancied me." FFS
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

In summary.

When in the presence of someone I consider an arsehole, a jerk or a weirdo I ought to be able to clap my hands and have the police deal with him or her.

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Bhud
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would get angry, for sure. To be honest, I'm not sure what I would do, in that instance. Probably nothing very wise.

I do not dispute that the examples you cite are of socially unacceptable behaviour. What's unacceptable is unacceptable - no question or doubt about it. However, should what's socially unacceptable automatically be made a criminal offence? Are existing laws sufficient to deal with public order and nuisance, and if they aren't, then why not? Can sentencing and enforcement be improved, rather than enacting a new law? How about leaving laws out of it, and teaching daughters to answer back, sharply?

I fear that the new balance of power will be exploited by unsavoury people, and that this is just starting to happen, already, without the street harassment law. A few years back a black man was killed by the police. There were legitimate protests, and then they got ugly. People jumped on the bandwagon and used the general chaos and disorder to steal a TV. That's how things work, when you get political tribes. You get opportunists. I can say, quite honestly, I am not motivated to harass a woman - it would never occur to me to do so. This applies to most men. However, it's always at the bottom, where people scramble for resources, that fights occur. I gave the example of the bird bath. How about the toilet paper run at the beginning of the pandemic, at Costco, in an inner city area? How about the Black Friday sales a few years back? You can bet your life that the next time there's a frenetic scramble for anything, with the proposed street harassment law in place, some women will claim to have been subjected to all kinds of vile abuse. Just to get a TV. And still, these laws against "verbal violence" would not have prevented the Sarah Everard case.

What the street harassment law amounts to is victimisation of the poor. Some people will be automatically wrong (inner city, ethnic, drug or drink addled, mentally ill, people with strong regional accents, misfits, etc.) Some people will be automatically right (sorry about the George Clooney example - let's try for "Boris" instead). This isn't about who is attractive as much as how much status someone has. Boris is upper class, he commits "gaffes", not thought crimes. Same for your local magistrates, bigwig councillors, etc.

Let's imagine a street homeless person, hauled in front of a court, in Manchester. This guy's got issues. He rants and raves at strangers (I've seen this in a Youtube video). However, he has no recollection of abusing a woman. He isn't actually interested in abusing women - he hates everyone, and society, and the world, and his life. But he's accused of street harassment of a woman, anyway. Taken in to the police station for the 200th time, he's read his rights. He appreciates the warmth and a cup of tea and someone to talk to, even if it's a cop with a target to meet. He won't say so, of course. The duty solicitor doesn't care - he just sits there. The guy may deny he said anything. But, oh look, he's got a drug habit. He's mentally ill. The police cajole and harass him. He may have forgotten he said something, they suggest. He admits his memory isn't good. They ask "kindly and caringly" about his drug habit. He opens up. All on record. Duty solicitor sits and plays with his phone. He gets charged. Kept in the cells (he's secretly happy about that). Hauled before magistrates, ranting and raving...

Is this street homeless man going to find £5000 to pay for a brief and ask for a jury trial? Of course not. That's why the police charged him in the first place. They aren't going to charge someone important. They know he's low-hanging fruit. Life is about pushing and shoving and jostling for position, and that dude lost a long time ago. Perhaps he simply can't win. But it would be nice if just a little bit of a sense of justice and fairness came into play, and his being a man and his purported victim being a woman was irrelevant. These were the ideals that underpinned our legal system for a long time.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hot guys aren't creepy just ones they aren't attracted to. Frankly it's just another reason for men to avoid dealing
with women and their endless lists of of expected criteria for male behaviour entirely. I refuse to pair up with
females at work or be alone in female company anywhere due to stuff like this. Apparently that's what the sista's want.
They can have it, but don't ever expect anything from me but a frown, I'm not playing this game anymore.
When the burden of proof is on you and you can be detained and questioned off the back of an unproven allegation
from a woman, you're no longer an equal member of society. So I don't interact with them at all and in fact glare angrily
at them when I'm at work so the message "Keep away" is clear. I point blank refuse to help with the training of female
new starters , not losing my job because some woman made some shit up that I have to disprove somehow. More
than happy to train new fellas, they don't use their gender as a weapon.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
verbal violence.


No such thing.

Quote:
It should...be treated as hate crime, criminally punishable.


History shows us what happens in countries where such laws about what can and can't be said are concerned. It isn't pretty. Leave it at being illegal to incite violence. That's far enough as far as laws on limitations on speech are concerned.

Better education about how to be generally polite and considerate is what is needed, but there will always be idiots out there unfortunately.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my workplace, which is around 50% gender balanced, any bullying, hate, backstabbing, hurtful comments, social segregation or general nastiness is in the VAST majority female on female.

In fact, all our staff were individually taken into a meeting recently and told to grow the fuck up and act like professional adults in the workplace (I paraphrase).

Wasn't until after I was taken in and got the word on the street off one of my colleagues I was made aware that female A had apparently been exchanging texts with the boyfriend of female B and that females C and D were now not talking to female B and females E and F were refusing to work with female A.

Obviously my meeting had a very different tone to some of the other ones because I was only in there so it was apparent that nobody was being "picked on".

Cue much ado with running out into cars/locking selves in toilets.

What really gets me is why females A through F hadn't simply turned on the boyfriend in question and torn him a new arsehole? I can only conclude he must have a massive bulge in his trousers (either in the front or the back pocket).
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struan80
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the term gender balanced makes me cringe.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:37 - 21 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

struan80 wrote:
Even the term gender balanced makes me cringe.


On the plus side, it's not a deliberate policy, all staff are hired on their merits, there's a pretty equal balance in senior staff too.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 01:50 - 22 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


On the plus side, it's not a deliberate policy, all staff are hired on their merits, there's a pretty equal balance in senior staff too.


In the last few years I worked at Shell it all changed. You absolutly couldn't get employment without a degree (any degree, probably shagging carrots passed ok). Then coloured/female, etc. was the de rigeur,

But in say Nigeria, emplyimg non Nigerians in any role other than high supevisory is considered causing race issues.
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defblade
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 22 May 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got wolf-whistled at once, while I was riding my push bike.





20+ years ago now.




Still one of my fondest memories.
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