Fuel-injected 2003 (5PW) R1 stalling.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

I’m on the verge of getting my fuel-injected 2003 (5PW) R1 hauled off to the bike shop for diagnosis and repair. Save me the ignominy and cost.

I didn’t use this bike through lockdown but I had stored it with a full tank and a dash of Silkolene Pro-FST. I’ve since emptied the tank completely (what came out looked clean) and refilled with fresh petrol. The bike also had a new battery this month.

It starts fine every time but once warmed up it stalls with any hint of throttle even in neutral and regardless of side stand or clutch lever position.

It has,

Fresh fuel.
New battery.
Charging system is working (13.5v).
Downpipe temperatures (IR gun) seemed similar.
Air filter is clean and housing is secure on throttle bodies.
No change with fuel cap open.
No crimped lines.
No air leaks I can find.
Clutch isn’t stuck.
Fast idle (wax) valve seems to be working. Removed and cleaned anyway.
Electrical connectors all good and clean.
New spark plugs.
4 new ignition coils. (Originals had resistance slightly over spec but new ones didn’t fix it.)
New air temperature sensor. (As above. Losing faith in electrical component specs.)
EXUP valve and fuel pump working.
No engine warning light.
Throttle position sensor is a possibility but diagnostics check out ok and a new one is £300. (It’s just a potentiometer!)
Valve clearances overdue. Suspect this but the problem came on suddenly, which suggests electrical to me.

I’m guessing a blocked injector wouldn’t allow easy starting.
Tempted to take a punt on a new TPS.
Would dodgy valve clearances allow easy starting and warm up, but stalling with any throttle opening?

[jaffa90]

Had a similar problem years ago on my GSX 1400 where cleaning the injectors / rails gave it more fuel.
Also a fuel filter.

[xX-Alex-Xx]

I would have gone with TPS based on all that personally. How did you check it? Measured the resistances of open/closed?
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DILLIGAF

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

The dash has a nifty built-in diagnostic where you can roll the throttle and watch the numeric response. Fully closed = 18 (spec 15-17), fully open = low 90s (spec 97-100), but ran ok like this before. No leaps or stutters in the numbers as you roll the throttle across the full range. The TPS is a pain to get to. Yeah… maybe I will.

[A100man]

[Easy-X]

Logically when you open the throttle you're letting more air in. What should also happen is the TPS numbers go up. The ECU goes and looks up in its map how much fuel is required for a given throttle position taking into account air density, temperature etc. It then says to the injector how many milliseconds to open. There's other stuff like timing advance but that'd affect peak performance rather general operation.

Given the diagnostics do show the TPS output I doubt it's that. Blocked injector? What all of them?! (I'm assuming one throttle body per cylinder + injector.)

How about fuel pump? If there's no pressure maybe there's enough dribble for idle just from gravity
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[A100man]

[ThunderGuts]

So to confirm, you can't get it to climb revs using the throttle at all? Does it have any kind of anti-stall (i.e. automated slight rev pickup when releasing the clutch) - if so, maybe try easing out the clutch in gear and see if the revs pick up a bit. Does the wax idle cause the revs to elevate when running from stone cold (today would be a good day to test this as it's pretty chilly at the moment).

It's odd; if it was the TPS then I'd expect a more likely outcome is the revs just don't rise, not that it stalls - if the ECU wasn't getting the signal from the TPS, the revs would just stay the same. The fact it stalls suggests something is being detected from the TPS. EasyX might have a point about the pump - does it whirr audibly when the ignition is turned on?
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TG.

[Easy-X]

I'd be curious if very slowly you increase the throttle does reach a cut off point and die or just get steadily worse and eventually stall?
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[UncleFester]

You got an IAT or MAP/MAF on that?
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Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[steve the grease]

Clean or replace the fuel filter.
Clean the injectors , not with a can of snake oil. Actually remove them and blow them out with brake cleaner. I did this on some blokes car - kept going down onto 3 on idle - emissions were no good. Time + can of brake cleaner + 2 sheets blue paper. Punter" It's never run as well."
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All the above is my personal opinion, you can see my lips move, but I'm talking out of my arse.
I've been riding, and fixing , bikes for 50 years, in that time the more I learn, the less I am absolutely sure of.....

[Copycat73]

have you cleaned the filter inside the fuel tank ?
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Whatever I post I have no citation and no intention of providing one..
caveat emptor

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

[Fizzer Thou]

If you can get the engine hot at tickover,perform a compression test.If the readings are low then check the valve clearances.

A friend was having big problems with his 5PW-R1 and so took his bike to a shop to have the shim clearances done.Several had no clearance at all.Cost him £300,which is cheap compared to some places that I have heard about.
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Just talk bikes.What else is there?

Always have a 'Plan B'

[xX-Alex-Xx]

When I had my 929, I had an issue with the wax unit (actually the air intake valves it connected to). The adjustment was way off, so when the engine was cold I'd have cold start revs up to about 4000 before I adjusted the lever back down.

Possibly a similar thing going on here if you're saying you can raise the revs by manipulating the wax unit when the bike's warm? When you're pushing it, are you opening the idle air intake valves or closing them?
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DILLIGAF

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

[P.]

How are you doing that on FI? If you mean the lever, thats just a fast idle lever.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

[Robby]

TPS makes sense to me, in that it's the only bit where a small amount of trouble can have an impact that big.

If the injectors were seriously blocked, it wouldn't idle. It also takes a lot more to block and injector than it does to clog a jet on a carb, squirting fuel through them under pressure does a good job of cleaning them.

Any kind of air flow or air pressure sensor problem would either give you no start, rough idle, or slightly rough running elsewhere. Not a perfect idle but nothing else.

So TPS makes sense. It's getting the amount of air going into the engine totally wrong, and providing a fuel/air ratio that won't burn.

General old-school thing, it's worth going hunting for corrosion in the electrical system anyway and cleaning it up when a bike has been sitting for a long while. Brakes may need the same treatment.

[BRUN]

did it work ?

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

I was a bit distracted today with hay fever and other stuff so I didn’t finish the job. M5 x 10mm hex head bolts were hard to find locally so I was thinking of cutting a couple down to size but instead plumped for cap head Allen bolts from Halfords, and I had to go back for flat and split lock/spring washers because the originals wouldn’t come off the old Torx bolts for some reason. I also bought a set of Bondhus Stubby head Allen keys which should make TPS access easier ‘next time.’ I don’t know why I think there’ll be a next time but I like to address annoying fixing issues. Call it an upgrade.

I haven’t got the throttle bodies entirely free, they just lift a couple of inches which makes TPS access easier, but various fittings still in place which I can’t be bothered to remove are offering some resistance. Consequently I dropped the fiddly 1cm bolts and washers, and it turns out these stainless steel bolts aren’t magnetic (a magnet on a telescopic stick being my No. 1 tool). I thought I’d been sold aluminium bolts but the explanation is probably that they contain austenite.

That’s where I left it. Based on experience I could faff around all evening and not get the job done, but it’ll go together at the first attempt (starting with Blu-tack on a stick) tomorrow. Know when to take a break, I say.

Sorry BRUN, it’s a cliffhanger.

[UncleFester]

As the late Dan Blankenship said, progress goes forwards AND backwards
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Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Today I decided the throttle body unit would have to come free, and even that wasn’t easy what with stuck electrical connectors. Nothing wrong with them inside but the plastic just didn’t seem to want to release. Right decision though, the TPS installation was a lot easier.

I briefly wondered about going that bit further and doing valve clearances but I’ve never done it before and I’d only do it on a healthy bike, otherwise if it didn’t run I wouldn’t know whether I’d fixed the original problem and botched something else, or vice versa. One problem at a time. I already feel like I’ve bitten off more than I can chew but I will get this done. Mechanic’s hourly rates are looking like a bargain now though!

TPS installed, I had it upside down at first but I’d taken photos. I also noted that the throttle body is aluminium (I think) so I went easy on the new steel bolts, letting the spring washer do it’s thing rather than cranking down all the way. The TPS angle adjustment by reference to a voltmeter gave an odd, unstable reading, slowly climbing. I used the dash diagnostic to set it up but will try the voltmeter again when the throttle bodies are back on.

Throttle body re-installation isn’t going well. I thought I’d got it, tighten up the clamps and gave it a wiggle, it came loose. I’ve lightly oiled the rubber seals but the bodies just won’t go on.

I’ve now turned to alcohol indoors. Mañana.

[UncleFester]

Hairdryer - you need them as pliable as you can or if they are can be easily removed, soak them in very hot water before fitting. Obvs align the clips so you can get at them once they are fitted.

edit: Make sure the clamps are sufficiently slack to give the rubbers space to expand over the lips.
____________________
Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.