Help & FAQs    Search BCF    Members    Groups    Events Calendar
Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Mental health and guns

 Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Islander
World Chat Champion



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 13:34 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Weisse Schlange wrote:
The only thing I would say is that you can have a shotgun with no reason.
You're entitled to one, everyone is in the UK.

If that were true you wouldn’t need a licence.


It is true and you do need a shotgun certificate. You don't need a good reason to hold one.

https://firearmsuk.org/a-simple-guide-to-getting-your-shotgun-certificate/
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:54 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
This was the thing struck down recently by the US supreme court, NYC said "yes, you can have a concealed carry permit but we need to ask why" errr.... "DENIED!"

Basically the plebs couldn't get one regardless of reason. Some Z-list celeb's entourage? No problem. The court found that unfair for some reason.
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kawasaki Jimbo
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Oct 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:57 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was being slightly pedantic (everyone’s doing it) and I’m not stopping. You’re entitled to apply for a firearm. If you were simply entitled to have one there would be no need for a licence.

According to the .gov website, https://www.gov.uk/shotgun-and-firearm-certificates
Quote:
You must also prove to the chief officer of police that you’re allowed to have a firearms certificate and pose no danger to public safety or to the peace.

A shotgun certificate will not be given or renewed if the chief officer of police has a reason that you should not be allowed to have a shotgun under the Firearms Act. Or if they do not think you have a good reason to have, buy or acquire a shotgun.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 20:20 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weisse Schlange wrote:
banning is not the answer in my opinion.

Having an opinion is fine, yet they should be based in reality (posting this again):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png

Weisse Schlange wrote:
Knife murders in the UK anyone ?

Would you rather have a knife or gun pulled on you? Would you rather someone gets stabbed or bullets go flying hitting whoever happens to be nearby?

Weisse Schlange wrote:
As for the types of guns statement, no, the popular hanguns of choice these days are imported from Eastern Europe

The media trying to convince you it's converted vintage guns is more to do with someones motive to get rid of all guns at all costs, conveniently ignoring the actual problems.

Except it isn't the media, 'on the street' it's what people are after. What is the actual problem, as you said before mental health? I think you'll find 'in the hood' they aren't all suffering from mental health issues, more they're criminals using the most effective tools for the job.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Im-a-Ridah
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Karma :
PostPosted: 21:49 - 23 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Would you rather have a knife or gun pulled on you? Would you rather someone gets stabbed or bullets go flying hitting whoever happens to be nearby?


A gun is less dangerous. In theory you can run away from a Mr stabby but the chances are that a group of 16 year old kids from "diverse backgrounds" can run a fair bit faster than you can. And a knife does a lot more damage than a cheap 9mm handgun does. It's not a fair one to one comparison, but it does reflect a real life threat quite well. Knives are also a lot quieter than guns which can be a factor in some situations.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 02:05 - 24 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
M.C wrote:
Would you rather have a knife or gun pulled on you? Would you rather someone gets stabbed or bullets go flying hitting whoever happens to be nearby?


A gun is less dangerous.

That might just be the stupidest thing ever written on this forum.

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
In theory you can run away from a Mr stabby but the chances are that a group of 16 year old kids from "diverse backgrounds" can run a fair bit faster than you can.

In practice I managed it growing up. With knives you obviously have to be in extremely close proximity, a friend even kicked away the guy trying to stab him whilst cornered/on his back. If the guy had a gun he would have stood over him and fired however many rounds.

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
And a knife does a lot more damage than a cheap 9mm handgun does.

Cheap? Look at the US as an example...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Knives are also a lot quieter than guns which can be a factor in some situations.

Unless they shoot from a distance and miss I don't see how hearing gunfire will be an advantage.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

MCN
Super Spammer



Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 01:59 - 25 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
This thread is now so boring it could drive you to shoot yourself Laughing


This thread needs a Donk.
____________________
Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Im-a-Ridah
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Karma :
PostPosted: 13:57 - 25 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

That might just be the stupidest thing ever written on this forum.


No, that honour goes to the idea that guns are more dangerous than knives. Knives create a much larger wound and separate flesh causing immense bleeding. Bullets create a fairly small hole but have a secondary stratching effect internally caused by velocity. A single gunshot is far more survivable with prompt medical treatment.

You can say "ahh but what about a 12 gauge shotgun", sure, it's more dangerous than a kitchen knife. But the knife counterpart of that would be a samurai sword chopping your head off.

M.C wrote:

In practice I managed it growing up. With knives you obviously have to be in extremely close proximity, a friend even kicked away the guy trying to stab him whilst cornered/on his back. If the guy had a gun he would have stood over him and fired however many rounds.


As I already said, guns are more dangerous if you are a faster runner than the knifeman. But given the age demographics of the stabbers they're at least a decade or 3 younger than you, so probably you will be slower. And there are 5 of them. So you're going to get stabbed and each stab is going to make you bleed out way quicker than each bullet.

Typically you are in an argument up close and then it turns violent. So the scenario in 99.999% of cases starts in knife range where actually knives are faster than guns as per the 21 foot rule (see video below). At longer ranges hanguns become much harder to accurately shoot for untrained street crims. Between that, guns rule, but an argument that starts 50 feet away and turns into a gun battle is a relatively unlikely scenario for normal citizens (non-gang members).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o

M.C wrote:

Unless they shoot from a distance and miss I don't see how hearing gunfire will be an advantage.


Once you're into the realms of people snipering you, the question of gun vs knife is probably the least of your worries. That's quite different from casual street violence. The advantage of the silence of a knife is that criminals who stab people don't want police 2 street away hearing the gunfire.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Jmoan
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 18:28 - 25 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Just in case they were feeling left out, America delivers.....

Illinois shooting: Six dead in 4 July parade shooting near Chicago

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62042636


They'll milk that for all it's worth and the other set ups but bury incidents like this where more people were killed or injured.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/pVJ7qgomXDQ7/
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Karma :
PostPosted: 20:03 - 25 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jmoan wrote:
bury incidents like this where more people were killed or injured.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/pVJ7qgomXDQ7/

In what way was it buried?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Darrell+Edward+Brooks&source=lnms&tbm=nws
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 18:19 - 27 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
M.C wrote:

That might just be the stupidest thing ever written on this forum.


No, that honour goes to the idea that guns are more dangerous than knives.

I even presented evidence showing you're wrong yet you still want to double down on your stupidity? https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/ Why do many more people die from guns than knives if they're less dangerous?

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
M.C wrote:

In practice I managed it growing up. With knives you obviously have to be in extremely close proximity, a friend even kicked away the guy trying to stab him whilst cornered/on his back. If the guy had a gun he would have stood over him and fired however many rounds.

As I already said, guns are more dangerous if you are a faster runner than the knifeman. But given the age demographics of the stabbers they're at least a decade or 3 younger than you, so probably you will be slower. And there are 5 of them. So you're going to get stabbed and each stab is going to make you bleed out way quicker than each bullet.

And as I said I lived it, I'm not someone fantasising on an internet forum. You keep your distance and get yourself out of that situation, guns change the whole dynamic, you can see endless videos of people getting shot during robberies (but they'll probably be fine according to you) who did very little 'wrong'.

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
[Typically you are in an argument up close and then it turns violent. So the scenario in 99.999% of cases starts in knife range where actually knives are faster than guns as per the 21 foot rule (see video below). At longer ranges hanguns become much harder to accurately shoot for untrained street crims. Between that, guns rule, but an argument that starts 50 feet away and turns into a gun battle is a relatively unlikely scenario for normal citizens (non-gang members).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o

No shit they keep their distance, they also keep their distance with a gunman for the reason you yourself stated.

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
M.C wrote:

Unless they shoot from a distance and miss I don't see how hearing gunfire will be an advantage.


Once you're into the realms of people snipering you, the question of gun vs knife is probably the least of your worries. That's quite different from casual street violence. The advantage of the silence of a knife is that criminals who stab people don't want police 2 street away hearing the gunfire.

I wasn't talking about sniping, even in the US that's pretty rare; Vegas shooter and that black guy in the converted car are the only ones that spring to mind. Also the British police don't go running into gunfire, the US police don't seem to either if they genuinely feel in danger, eg: the Texas school shooting.

And if you're wondering why I'm getting pissy about this it's because if people like you had their way, those of us who had to grow up in diversity hell holes would have had a much more dangerous time, and likely wouldn't be alive to tell the tale.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 19:03 - 27 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can I have a blunderbuss ?
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 19:10 - 27 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Only for closing your loop.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Im-a-Ridah
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Karma :
PostPosted: 22:57 - 27 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
I even presented evidence showing you're wrong yet you still want to double down on your stupidity? https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/ Why do many more people die from guns than knives if they're less dangerous?


Because you are making claim X and then providing evidence Y, then calling me retarded when I point out that you didn't give evidence X. Go get two pieces of beef, shoot one with a 9mm handgun and stab the other with a dagger, then look at which does more damage. The bullet will stick a hole in it, the dagger could slash it nearly in half.

Your link refers to gang violence which is not a valid threat model unless you personally are a gang member. If you are, then your problem isn't guns but rather your lifestyle of gang membership. Guns are used in gang killings in the US not because they do more damage but because they expose the attacker to less risk of counterfire. To even further evidence this point the gangs use fairly rubbish guns and crappy ammo, and more often than not the victim survives. For the civilian case i.e you was I talking about, knives are more dangerous. I've provided bags of evidence and all you've been able to do so far is call me names.

https://youtu.be/Vey6np0-KFk?t=245

M.C wrote:
And as I said I lived it, I'm not someone fantasising on an internet forum. You keep your distance and get yourself out of that situation, guns change the whole dynamic, you can see endless videos of people getting shot during robberies (but they'll probably be fine according to you) who did very little 'wrong'.


You have no idea what I have or haven't experienced, you're just ASSuming again. You've still not explained to me how you would outrun a gang of 16 year old diverse kids with knives. Instead you just hurled some abuse and declared yourself correct Laughing

M.C wrote:
AAnd if you're wondering why I'm getting pissy about this it's because


... you're a boomer and you hate being wrong? Laughing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

M.C
Super Spammer



Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Karma :
PostPosted: 00:23 - 28 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Because you are making claim X and then providing evidence Y, then calling me retarded when I point out that you didn't give evidence X.

I said it was stupid/stupidity. I provided evidence that guns cause (a lot) more deaths than knives, whilst you've err...

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Go get two pieces of beef, shoot one with a 9mm handgun and stab the other with a dagger, then look at which does more damage. The bullet will stick a hole in it, the dagger could slash it nearly in half.

...and if I got a bloody chainsaw it would do much more damage than both of them. What's responsible for the most deaths out of the three?

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Your link refers to gang violence which is not a valid threat model unless you personally are a gang member.

I think you'll find gangs are linked with street crime which's what we have both been referring to. They also probably have a pretty good idea about what weapons are most effective/best to use.

https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E12AQE8dX4wLFY7FA/article-inline_image-shrink_1500_2232/0/1621428114578?e=1664409600&v=beta&t=9rh7kC0s4U3i1XAZ3Kxs73ZK49E6FKTreBqwcOsTUxc

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
You have no idea what I have or haven't experienced, you're just ASSuming again.

I revealed straight away that I had routinely experienced it first hand, if you did you would have immediately countered that. What someone doesn't say is often more telling... tell me I'm wrong and you grew up in the hood Wink

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
You've still not explained to me how you would outrun a gang of 16 year old diverse kids with knives. Instead you just hurled some abuse and declared yourself correct Laughing

M.C previously wrote:
You keep your distance and get yourself out of that situation, guns change the whole dynamic, you can see endless videos of people getting shot during robberies (but they'll probably be fine according to you) who did very little 'wrong'.

Obviously in your head every attempted mugging involves the perpetrator, willing to chase you across the city and stab you to death. Again this indicates fuck all real world experience and someone who's fantasising. Every time I needed to get away I did and I'm not Usain Bolt. I even a cited a friend who didn't...
M.C previously wrote:
a friend even kicked away the guy trying to stab him whilst cornered/on his back. If the guy had a gun he would have stood over him and fired however many rounds.

^and that wasn't a random attack.

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
... you're a boomer and you hate being wrong? Laughing

If I was a boomer then I wouldn't have been growing up in a diverse hellhole... I'm wrong in the same way shitlibs will tell you diversity is amazing and you're wrong if you disagree, in other words someone who comes at a subject from a position of ignorance yet still thinks they know best.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:15 - 28 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Go get two pieces of beef, shoot one with a 9mm handgun and stab the other with a dagger, then look at which does more damage. The bullet will stick a hole in it, the dagger could slash it nearly in half.

Thumbs Up

You make a good point about how dangerous daggers and handguns can be to pieces of beef that are already dead but the story is a bit different for living people.

Guns are deadlier than knives. Chances of survival are much better for someone who's been slashed or stabbed with a dagger than they are for someone who gets shot with a handgun.

Rain
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Im-a-Ridah
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Karma :
PostPosted: 10:01 - 28 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Because you are making claim X and then providing evidence Y, then calling me retarded when I point out that you didn't give evidence X.

I said it was stupid/stupidity. I provided evidence that guns cause (a lot) more deaths than knives, whilst you've err...


Is that the best you can come up with? Honestly, I'm done with this forum Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :
PostPosted: 13:05 - 28 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Daggers" ?! Playing too many RPGs methinks Wink

https://youtu.be/Z0mYHjFlh74
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 13:19 - 28 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
What about mental health and gun crime threads on forums? Laughing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

tatters
Exxon Valdez



Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 17:01 - 29 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Go get two pieces of beef, shoot one with a 9mm handgun and stab the other with a dagger, then look at which does more damage. The bullet will stick a hole in it, the dagger could slash it nearly in half.

Thumbs Up

You make a good point about how dangerous daggers and handguns can be to pieces of beef that are already dead but the story is a bit different for living people.

Guns are deadlier than knives. Chances of survival are much better for someone who's been slashed or stabbed with a dagger than they are for someone who gets shot with a handgun.

Rain


As someone who owns and and uses various different calibre pistols/shotguns/rifles to regularly to kill animals/pests on and around a farms and on a much lesser extent to kill with a knife (slashing open throats on pigs for example).

There are far too many variables to compare, most important factor is shot/stab placement. I would consider that a firearm and a knife as the tools that they are have the same deadliness.
____________________
Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650 Present:G650XC,C12,KZ750,1190ADV
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Weisse Schlange
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 09 Nov 2020
Karma :
PostPosted: 21:40 - 30 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
The idea that a knife does more damage is ludicrous.

Energy transfer and hydrostatic shock cause massive damage around the entry point of a gunshot

If I shoot a deer in the shoulder, that whole front section of meat is unusable due to being turned to jelly.
____________________
Hing Oan
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Val
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:17 - 31 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weisse Schlange wrote:
The idea that a knife does more damage is ludicrous.

Energy transfer and hydrostatic shock cause massive damage around the entry point of a gunshot

If I shoot a deer in the shoulder, that whole front section of meat is unusable due to being turned to jelly.


In close combat knifes are way more dangerous.

Not to mention knifes are more available in the UK then guns.

Nobody is roamning the street with his hunting shotgun.



Knives Are Deadlier

According to FBI fatality stats from officers killed in a fight, 10% of those who were shot died from their wounds.

But 30% of those who were attacked with a knife were killed as a result of being cut and stabbed.

...

In a close quarters attack, you could be stabbed 3-5 times in a single second.

...

And FBI stats also reveal that only 1 in 4 bullets ever hit their mark – even at ranges as close as 3′.



https://warriorlife.com/featured/tactical-firearms-training-vs-a-knife/
____________________
Adrian Monk: Unless I'm wrong, which, you know, I'm not...
Yamaha Fazer FZS 600, MT09, XSR 900
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Val
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Nov 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 12:25 - 31 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Val wrote:
Death per capita gives you what is probability to be killed. Number of deaths per gun gives you how safe is gun ownership per gun.

Using your logic the US with over 400 million guns is significantly safer than the UK when it comes to gun crime Neutral I think we made a mistake keeping you Val.


I have not said that though.

I literally said: Death per capita gives you what is probability to be killed. Number of deaths per gun gives you how safe is gun ownership per gun.

Yes US gun owners are better in gun safety, but probability to die is bigger, because you have more guns.
____________________
Adrian Monk: Unless I'm wrong, which, you know, I'm not...
Yamaha Fazer FZS 600, MT09, XSR 900
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Easy-X
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Mar 2019
Karma :
PostPosted: 13:02 - 31 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
If we start arming the UK populous, maybe under the pretence of self-defence after a wolf re-wilding campaign goes wrong, and get everyone used to guns again.

One packed Channel Tunnel train of armed citizens and we could probably take Calais in an afternoon. The government will send over troops, ostensibly to help the French retake the town, but in reality as reinforcements. While that little sideshow is going on crack troops will be parachuted in to capture all the nuclear plants.

With the power literally in our hands we can start dictating to the EU.

How'd ya like Brexit now? Twisted Evil
____________________
Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Ribenapigeon
Super Spammer



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:43 - 31 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote
What about how motivated and aggressive the weapon user is? Maybe knife users are more motivated to do harm and more aggressive so more likely to use the weapon and deploy it more effectively?
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 1 year, 269 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> Politics & Current Affairs All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
 You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.11 Sec - Server Load: 0.82 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 156.1 Kb