Electric Vehicle Economy

[Fat Angry Scotsman]

I realise I am not the standard case for EV use as the vast majority of my electricity has been taken from the ChargePlace Scotland network which costs £0.00 per kWh, so my cost to run is virtually nil on electricity.

I've had my Tesla Model 3 Long Range for a number of months now and put on her exactly 4,000 miles.

I drive mostly on motorways so my economy is pretty terrible as there's not much regenerative braking on motorway trips. I also fucking hoon it in the mornings because I am chronically running late. Driving back home in the evening is at a much more relaxed pace. The miles on the clock would have been higher but every day I don't need to take my kid somewhere in the morning I will get on the bike.

I charge the car from around 10% - 20% up to 90% and I average around 290 - 310 Wh/mi. Real world mileage from approx. 90% to 10% has been about 220 - 290 miles per charge, it genuinely varies a lot depending on the type of driving and weather conditions sometimes I get shit economy, other times I fucking hyper-mile, but, it's normally on the lower end because of my commuting habits.

So now I am interested in comparing the economy of driving electric to petrol in terms of energy usage and cost.

ENERGY:

We know the energy used by my car is about 310 Wh/mi.

We know the energy density of petrol is 46 MJ/kg.

SOURCE: https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density

We know that 1 litre of petrol is 0.74kg.

SOURCE: https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/resources/why-does-burning-1-litre-of-fuel-create-over-2kg-of-carbon-dioxide/#:~:text=One%20litre%20of%20petrol%20weighs,it's%20a%20potent%20greenhouse%20gas.

As such one litre of petrol has (46.00 MJ/kg x 0.74 kg = 34.04 MJ) 34.04 MJ/l of energy in it.

We know a UK imperial gallon has 4.546 litres in it.

SOURCE: https://www.metric-conversions.org/volume/uk-gallons-to-liters.htm

As such one gallon of petrol has (34.040 MJ/l x 4.546 l = 154.75 MJ) 154.75 MJ of energy in it.

We know the most popular car in the UK for 2022 is the Vauxhall Corsa.

SOURCE: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/94280/best-selling-cars-2022-uks-top-10-most-popular-models

Vauxhall state the average combined mpg of 54.4 for petrol engines.

SOURCE: https://www.parkers.co.uk/vauxhall/corsa/review/mpg-running-costs/

As such the energy used per mile in the Vauxhall Corsa is (154.75 MJ/ 54.4 miles = 2.845 MJ/mi) = 2.845 MJ/mi.

We know my Tesla uses about 310 Wh/mi, so we convert this to MJ/mi = 1,116,000 J/mi = 1.116 MJ/mi.

SOURCE: https://www.unitconverters.net/energy/watt-hour-to-joule.htm

Now we know the approximate energy economy of both vehicles in Mega-Joules per mile, we can calculate how much more efficient the electric car is over a petrol car in terms of energy conversion which shows us that the Tesla is 87.30% more efficient in terms of energy used per mile travelled than the Vauxhall.

SOURCE:
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-difference-calculator.php

PRICE:

We know that the average cost of petrol per litre is currently £1.86.

SOURCE: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/fuel-watch/

Therefore the cost per mile is (£1.86/(54.4mpg/4.546l)) = (1.86 £'s/l / 11.97mi/l) = £0.16 per mile.

We know that the average cost of electricity for at home charging is variable depending on the time of day, but I will assume the average at peak time of £0.19/kWh.

SOURCE: https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-cost-electricity-kwh-uk#nogo

Therefore the cost per mile is (0.19 £'s/1000kWh / (1000W/310Wh/mi) = (£0.19 / 3.23 mi) = £0.06 per mile.

Now we know the approximate energy economy of both vehicles in cost of energy per mile, we can calculate how much more efficient the electric car is over a petrol car in terms of cost per mile which shows us that the Tesla is 104.0% more efficient in terms of energy cost per mile travelled than the Vauxhall.

SOURCE:
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-difference-calculator.php

Electric vehicles god stomp petrol vehicles in efficiency.

INB4 someone says "OH BUT DIESEL" (they're being banned mate) or "OH BUT HYBRID" (still more inefficient) or "OH BUT TESLA MORE EXPENSIVE THAN VAUXHALL" (nonsense argument, it's comparing economy on the most popular electric car versus the most popular petrol car in the UK).

The electric car is way heavier than the petrol one and still god stomps it on economy.
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PRESENT: 2018 BMW S1000XR SE Sport.
PAST: 2009 Kawasaki ER-6F. 2021 Zontes ZT-125U.

[Polarbear]

Well done. Wear your EV badge with pride.

Straight efficiency isn't always the be all and end all of choosing a power source whether it be cars, boats aeroplanes or whatever. We had this discussion with electric planes which I'm sure are way more efficient than a jet or turbo prop. Doesn't work though. You cannot just look at one aspect. An electric motor, even the ones we had on ships back in the days of steam power were well over 80% efficient from what I remember and I'm sure the modern ones are probably way better than that. Trouble is where the electricity is generated. Include the losses from a diesel generator and the efficiency drops way off. You are not including losses from the power generation whereas the ICE has those losses inbuilt.

And yes, the relative cost of the vehicle is a huge factor simply because -
1. A large number of people can't afford 50 grand for an EV like yours.
2. You spend 20 grand on a Corsa you have another 30 grand to spend on dino poo power before you have broken even.

You can pick facets of everything to make the case for one or the other, You are going on cost per mile, fine, we know EV's are way cheaper. Do the same with government taxes removed and tell me which would be cheaper -

Rough figures using your formula without government fuel taxes. 50% used because I really cannot be arsed to look it up.

(0.93 £'s/l / 11.97mi/l) = £0.08 per mile

Not that huge amount of difference in actual costs then so the cost per mile is an artificial figure because of government intervention.

Saying that, I'd have an EV if you could buy a second hand one with a decent range for under 10 grand but you can't.
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[rpsmith79]

Economy is one thing, but cost is another, what is the PCP difference between a Tesla and an Corsa???

Nobody is denying EV's are economical, but they are ludicrously expensive for anyone who doesn't have the luxury of company car ownership (ie about 97% of car owners)

I mean yeah, we all know an electric motor is going to way more efficient than any ICE engine, purely from the fact an electric motor has 1 moving part, and generates negligable heat as a by-product

Compare that 2 an ICE engine with many hundreds of moving parts, all generating friction and heat, not-withstanding the fuel being burnt also generating heat, that heat is mostly useless, and only ever used in cold weather, after that the energy in that heat is 'lost' to atmosphere

It's hardly rocket science
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Current Bike: Honda CG125 ES4 // Honda CB600FS Hornet // Triumph Street Triple R

[A100man]

Some good point and use of SI units but..

My home electric (Shell) is 29p /KWh which I don't think is unusual at the moment, also according to Pod Point cost for public fast chargers is 44p/KWh.

The efficiency sidetrack is somewhat irrelevant since there are too many wasy electricity is generated and they all have different enviro impacts.
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Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600

[chickenstrip]

EVs? Never!

Did the dinosaurs go extinct for nothing?
#DinosaurLivesMatter
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THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE!

[Easy-X]

Factor in depreciation and maintenance.

A 50,000 mile, 5yo Tesla S ~ £40,000. List price new £95,000.

Corsa is a bit weak, a 2017 5-series BMW would be a little more equivalent, comfort-wise @ ~ £18,000. List price new £42,000

The Tesla still needs tyres, brakes, suspension looking at like any car. I'll assume the motors would need very little (compared to ICE) in 5 years. Batteries though? The BMW would obviously cost more, ongoing, but I doubt it's range and power would drop much over 5 years.

Apples versus Oranges.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[The Shaggy D.A.]

Aye, but the Corsa's fuel tank doesn't shrink with age
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Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
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[Fat Angry Scotsman]

Fair enough points in retort. Name me any petrol car that’s the same price and I’ll run the calculations again for it.

EDIT: just to point out this was to compare the most popular electric car against the most popular petrol car. Also didn’t look at depreciation.
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PRESENT: 2018 BMW S1000XR SE Sport.
PAST: 2009 Kawasaki ER-6F. 2021 Zontes ZT-125U.

[WD Forte]

lectric cars?
Pah !

Poofterwaggons

drive a coarser like a real man
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bikers smell of wee

[rpsmith79]

[ThunderGuts]

I genuinely wonder what the future is going to bring for EVs; not the tech, but what the government does. As EVs get more popular, a massive source of revenue (tax on fuel) is being constricted. The govt can't afford to lose this revenue stream, so they'll need to get it from somewhere else. The question is, where, but if most people end up with EVs the chances are they'll swoop in. My guess would be a pay-per-mile vehicle tax as it'll be cited as "fair" as it proportionally affects users (how fair it really is of course is another matter as there are CEOs who hardly go anywhere and people on living wage having to trek all over the place, that's without including those professions that actually involve driving, taxi, courier etc..). I think the "EV is cheap to run" bubble is just that and it'll burst at some point. It's likely that ICE vehicles will be even more expensive though as they won't want people to slide back towards ICE.

Maybe I'm being a bit cynical . . .
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TG.

[Easy-X]

Price per mile? Okay, so people are gonna wear it that an EV Corsa pays the same as an EV BMW, that doesn't sound fair

Could do more for the environment by crushing the rail unions and bringing down the cost of the alternatives to road travel.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[ThunderGuts]

[Fat Angry Scotsman]

[Easy-X]

[doggone]

Getting a lower cost per mile becomes more important as you do more miles.
Bikes are a case in point as while some do thousands of miles a year a lot barely do 5000 miles so paying about 3x more for comparable performance makes no sense at all.

Both EV cars and bikes come into their own for commuting they are very poor if used mainly for occasional longer trips and even worse at the moment for much longer journeys or holiday touring when far too much time will be spent worrying about charging and waiting for charging.
There will never be enough charge points when it takes an hour or more to get a sensible top up.

For long periods most of our power is not coming from renewables and it never will. Gas and nuclear are the mainstays and wind is often under 5% because there hardly is any.
So gas is being burned remotely and power sent through lines with significant losses to charge all the cars which now run at higher efficiency on a small tank of fuel whenever you need to go somewhere
Adding 1000s more turbines won't help when there isn't any wind and solar panels are not doing much at night.

[Bhud]

I just don't see electric as a simple drop-in replacement for what we've got at the moment. If you take all the cars on the road at the present time, and imagine them swapped for EVs, are there even enough rare earth minerals that would be needed for the batteries? In addition, the power grid would have to be significantly upgraded. There is a single new nuclear power station that's been authorised in the south east, but that's not a substitute for decades of underinvestment. The railway network is well below par, compared with other western European countries, plus it's very expensive and unreliable. Therefore, for the past few decades, the obvious transport solution for everyone has been either the car or the bus. It has been the norm to learn to drive, and to commute using a car to places that are out of town. People are more mobile than in some European countries (such as Spain) because of the car, yet (apparently) 50% of car journeys are under 5 miles long. It's now reached that tipping point where urban overcrowding, limits on development, street design and planning, and environmental and climate concerns all together will cause something to give way. My guess is, the shopping-trolley-car paradigm will simply bite the dust. Someone in this thread mentioned the £200/month ICE hire purchase small car vs the £350 EV hire purchase small car being a big deal for a certain type of buyer. I don't think that sort of customer will be around for much longer - habits are already changing quite fast.

[kgm]

Soy mate has a model 3 LR. I like it, very easy to drive and fair shifts. Loads of boot space too. I'd like one for the wife who commutes around 24k miles per year.

But...

Having done the calculations (before fuel prices went mad admittedly) it was still significantly cheaper overall to buy her the 3 year old cooper SD (cost £11500) which we will own outright soon than it was to get an electric car of any type with long enough range to cope with her commute (100 mile round trip with no charging facilities at work). The advantage would be less clear cut if you were instead buying a new luxury car on PCP however.

So the running cost benefits of the EV become more of an advantage with more miles travelled but here is another key factor - consider what 24k/year does to the cost of a PCP or lease deal. Much more expensive than the usual 5k offers and you still don't own it at the end.

I accept the situation is different if you have a company car but most don't.

I'd like to make the transition with one car but the purchase price and monthly payments are mental in comparison to a lightly used ICE car, the lower running costs of EV are nowhere near enough to offset that.

[kgm]

[doggone]

It's completely unrealistic to electrify the UK car fleet never mind change globally - and they know it - so they are more than happy to see private vehicle ownership becoming exponentially more unaffordable.
It is the only option when net zero is their only concern
Everyone is being rounded up for a big cull.
It is probably already too late because those making the decisions are not elected they appoint each other.

Look at our two candidates for PM they are both WEF lapdogs.
Well there is no alternative because even before the absurd covid spending rampage and money printing they were in an insane borrowing situation and the rug will be pulled on a whim.

It all went desperately wrong in 2008 but the sh*t only hit the fan when the fake pandemic was launched as an attempt to reset everything.

[panrider_uk]

[Polarbear]

[M.C]

[spnorm]

I also have a Tesla Model 3 Longe Range company car and it’s boring to drive (like playing a video game at warp speed) and really poorly built for a £50k car. I much prefer my Abarth 595 convertible for weekend fun and touring as it’s a real scream to drive; like a 1980’s rally car I had to change my bike from an R1250GS to an S1000XR as the Tesla made my GS feel a bit sluggish

The Tesla is very cheap to run IF charged at home overnight at 5p/kWh = £3.75 for 300 miles range. It’s not so cheap of I have to use a Supercharger on the road, but still cheaper than a diesel car. I also quickly learnt to seek out free destination chargers when driving around the country on business.

Mine is at its most economical on the motorway at 72mph on the speedo. Thrashing it around the Yorkshire Dales reduces the range by 50% to 200 miles.

Would I but one with my own money? Definitely not as they’re too expensive and the smaller ones don’t have enough range to get me to the Lakes or North York Moors and back without charging on the road. My M3LR does.

[Fat Angry Scotsman]