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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:

As such, I would make CBT compulsory for anyone using a bicycle


So you would criminalise children?


I'd take children on bicycles off the public road, yes. Instead they can cycle on off-road alternatives the same as they already have to for dirt bikes, pit bikes, quads and e-scooters.

You can thank me later for the drastic reduction in child deaths where they are no longer run-over by cars, vans and HGVs from doing stuff like crossing roads adjacently, zooming out from side-streets and lanes, etc (basically all the dumb stuff I did on a bicycle as a kid).
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, you'll price them off cycling. Even parks, as public places, are subject to the road traffic act.

The tow path my kids (including teh 6 year old) would also be considered a public place.

Do you know how much it costs to ride on a private off road place?

Where would you expect them to learn to ride the damn things in the first place?

Quite frankly it's one of the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:20 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
You can thank me later for the drastic reduction in child deaths where they are no longer run-over by cars, vans and HGVs from doing stuff like crossing roads adjacently, zooming out from side-streets and lanes, etc (basically all the dumb stuff I did on a bicycle as a kid).

How many kids are killed by cars, vans and HGVs each year?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you propose to stop kids from running into the road as well? Thats probably a bigger cause of death and injury.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:

As such, I would make CBT compulsory for anyone using a bicycle


So you would criminalise children?


When I was a kid, my dad wouldn't let me ride any further than our own block until I passed a cycling proficiency test, which with some training, was free to do. I see nothing wrong with insisting on such a requirement before letting anyone loose on the roads. If I had kids, I'd want them to be schooled in at least some basic safety stuff. Those who don't I guess don't care about their kids.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
How do you propose to stop kids from running into the road as well? Thats probably a bigger cause of death and injury.


I propose parents taking their responsibilities seriously.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Basically, you'll price them off cycling. Even parks, as public places, are subject to the road traffic act.

The tow path my kids (including teh 6 year old) would also be considered a public place.

Do you know how much it costs to ride on a private off road place?

Where would you expect them to learn to ride the damn things in the first place?

Quite frankly it's one of the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.


I agree that parks and off road paths should not come under the same restrictions as there are for on-roads. As such, I would relax rules and laws for parks, bike trails, etc.

I dare say there are a great many things we will never agree on, but I defend everyone's right to voice their own opinions regardless of my own on the subject.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
How many kids are killed by cars, vans and HGVs each year?


According to Government figures, in England: roughly 1,800 per year.

Source:

https://lginform.local.gov.uk/reports/lgastandard?mod-metric=305&mod-area=E92000001&mod-group=AllRegions_England&mod-type=namedComparisonGroup
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but how many were cycling at the time?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
How do you propose to stop kids from running into the road as well? Thats probably a bigger cause of death and injury.


I propose parents taking their responsibilities seriously.


No matter how well you teach kids how to cross roads safely, they are impulsive beasts and you cannot be there all the time.

Plus there are many occasions when all the teaching and taking resposibility in the world wouldn't help.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/girl-killed-driver-mounted-pavement-27520103

Just one example amongst many.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

My observations from around Manchester (both the city and the 'burbs) are the lunatic / soon-to-be-dead cyclists (use the term loosely) are usually in their 20s and probably know better, just choose not to behave that way. I very rarely see kids cycling dangerously as they spend most of their time cycling in residential cul-de-sacs, alleyways, parks etc.. rather than hooning down the A6 ignoring red lights or flying across Piccadilly Gardens with headphones on.

I think cyclists generally fall into a few categories;

a) Cautious and obedient cyclists (who are generally afraid to cycle in a lot of places, so you don't see them that often)

b) Confident and obedient cyclists (spot them if you look for them, but generally are not noticeable along with most other road users who are obedient - you forget them quickly)

c) Confident and wreckless cyclists (these are the ones who shoot across red lights and are probably the greatest direct danger to others)

d) Confident and clueless cyclists (these are actually a smaller group I'd argue, those who genuinely don't have a clue)

Further training would benefit groups a) by teaching them to be more confident and group d) by teaching the rules of the road. Group b) are in a good place already, group c) won't listen and probably will only respond to enforcement which in the current climate, won't happen.

My opinion is a lot of the "cycle problems" we have actually have the same root cause as the reason we have a lot of "car driver problems"; people can get away with not following the rules of the road. This is what needs clamping down on.
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Ste wrote:
How many kids are killed by cars, vans and HGVs each year?

According to Government figures, in England: roughly 1,800 per year.

So, just a few caveats on that figure, then:

It includes KSIs
It's for England only
It includes all RTAs, ie, not just pedestrians or cyclists, but also passengers in vehicles.

EDIT:
So here's the link (from this page) to an official DfT spreadsheet with stats on child cycling casualties in Great Britain:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1021685/ras30064.ods

Fatalties - around 8 per year; KSIs, about 300
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Last edited by Freddyfruitbat on 15:26 - 30 Aug 2022; edited 2 times in total
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Ste wrote:
How many kids are killed by cars, vans and HGVs each year?


According to Government figures, in England: roughly 1,800 per year.

Source:

https://lginform.local.gov.uk/reports/lgastandard?mod-metric=305&mod-area=E92000001&mod-group=AllRegions_England&mod-type=namedComparisonGroup

I think this is the document you're looking for: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedal-cyclist-factsheet-2020/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2020#sex-and-age-comparisons

As you can see, removing kids on pushbikes from the roads would have a tiny impact on the total number of dead cyclists.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
As you can see, removing kids on pushbikes from the roads would have a tiny impact on the total number of dead cyclists.


I don't know about you but I think 10% (under 16) to 16% (under 19) of all deaths is still too high and not a "tiny impact"
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:47 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, removing child cyclists from the road will hardly affect the rta figures for children.

Removing cars from the road< conversely, willl significantly affect them.

Before you suggest it would not be a proportionate response, I feel much the same about stopping kids riding cycles.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


I propose parents taking their responsibilities seriously.


No matter how well you teach kids how to cross roads safely, they are impulsive beasts and you cannot be there all the time.

Plus there are many occasions when all the teaching and taking resposibility in the world wouldn't help.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/girl-killed-driver-mounted-pavement-27520103

Just one example amongst many.


Ah, time to move the goalposts (again Rolling Eyes ) was it? Laughing
A reminder. Your question was:

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
How do you propose to stop kids from running into the road.


Now, if you had asked, "how do you propose to stop drivers from mounting the pavement?", my answer would likely have been different, since it is a different question Wink

To stop kids from running into the road, you could cut their legs off.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


To stop kids from running into the road, you could cut their legs off.


That's just as a proportionate suggestion as the Fat Celt's one
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:44 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


To stop kids from running into the road, you could cut their legs off.


That's just as a proportionate suggestion as the Fat Celt's one


It would work though. It would also provide employment.
Thinking You could do it to civil servants too; they don't need legs.
I am of course being totally serious.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

How am I supposed to get to the tea and buscuits without legs?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't get the previous memo? Due to budget cuts, no more tea and biscuits. So that's another problem solved Very Happy
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:44 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
Ste wrote:
As you can see, removing kids on pushbikes from the roads would have a tiny impact on the total number of dead cyclists.


I don't know about you but I think 10% (under 16) to 16% (under 19) of all deaths is still too high and not a "tiny impact"


The solution is simple. Increase the number of deaths among other groups Thumbs Up
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:23 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
I don't know about you but I think 10% (under 16) to 16% (under 19) of all deaths is still too high and not a "tiny impact"

In 2020 there were 141 cyclists killed on the roads so 26% of that is 36 point something dead kiddywinks.

You said that roughly 1,800 kids per year are killed by cars, vans and HGVs.

Removing the 36 cycling kids from the total would make such an insignificant difference that it would barely even be noticed.

If they're not allowed to cycle then that will mean more cars on the roads both now as they have to get their parents to take them places rather than being able to cycle there themselves and in the future as none of them will have got into the habit of cycling to places. The more cars there are on the roads, the more crashes there will be.

So 2% of the total number of deaded kids on the roads is a tiny amount.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 30 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
no more tea and biscuits


Shocked Oh FFS - I've only just reintroduced tea and biscuits in the bloody meetings.

If I have to, I'll reduce them to water - still or sparkling.
Don't think I can get away with a jug of tap water.

Although ... Thinking ... if I can rustle up some crystal jugs like the one I have in my fridge, they might just about cope with that.

They have to have water, they do a lot of talking.
Fortunately not as much hot air as you'd expect at that level Shifty
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 09:09 - 31 Aug 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
It would work though. It would also provide employment.
Thinking You could do it to civil servants too; they don't need legs.
I am of course being totally serious.


I can support this. Vote F.A.S. 2024.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 12 Sep 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now this, ...

https://vid.pr0gramm.com/2022/09/11/36a4d31a778d0562.mp4
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